Problem with recording midi to audio - Jitter upon record

Ok so am using logic 9.1.8 and have currently been working on projects that required me to use my MPC as the sequencer. Easy enough to do so i have a number of instrumental songs right now that are using various instruments of logic. They all play back fine with no jitter i can notice. But here is the problem.

 

I want to record the tracks to audio in order to mix and do a more intricate arrangement. I am using the method of bussing these instruments to there own aux channel then creating the same amount of audio tracks with a input from a aux channel.

Now when i try to record these as audio is when the jitter starts, and it so noticeable it's unusable. For example arpeggiated instrument is all out of time the hi hats are off, as is kick is and so on, it's a big old mess. Same thing happens if i try to record the midi data from the mpc to the original instrument track also. Although this isn't the method i wish to use anyway.

 

At the moment the only work around i have been able to do is by using Jackpilot to route the tracks into a old copy of harrison mixbus then put the audio wav's back into a new logic project. It works but very time consuming and a really disappointment considering logic has always be a joy to use up until now.

 

Using the MPC as a slave isn't a option for me BTW . I wish to capture the feel of that particular tool. So i really need a way to achieve the recording of this audio without using another DAW if possible.

 

Can anyone tell what maybe causing this issue and if it can be rectified.

 

Many Thanks

Matt

Try recording directly to audio tracks on the arrange. Delete the Auxes.

 

See if anything changes...

Thanks for the reply, but unless am missing something recording the audio tracks without going via a aux bus isn't possible. I am trigger the sounds via a outboard sequencer so there isn't even any midi notes recorded on those instrument tracks, although again it would still be the same outcome. The only option i have for getting the tracks into audio without recording a input from the sound cards external outputs is to go via aux bus and then to assign that to the audio track.

Thanks for the reply, but unless am missing something recording the audio tracks without going via a aux bus isn't possible. I am trigger the sounds via a outboard sequencer so there isn't even any midi notes recorded on those instrument tracks, although again it would still be the same outcome.

 

That's what audio tracks on the arrange are for. Recording from an input - this is how I record from my drum machines all day long. You don't need an Aux to do that.

 

 

The only option i have for getting the tracks into audio without recording a input from the sound cards external outputs is to go via aux bus and then to assign that to the audio track.

 

Just set up an audio track on the arrange, set it's input(s) to the input(s) coming from your MPC, enable recording, and record. That's what audio tracks are for. You don't need to be sending any MIDI to a synth to record from an input onto an audio/arrange track.

 

 

How are you monitoring your MPC? Software/input monitoring (via Logic)? Or hardware/direct monitoring?

Thanks for the reply, but unless am missing something recording the audio tracks without going via a aux bus isn't possible. I am trigger the sounds via a outboard sequencer so there isn't even any midi notes recorded on those instrument tracks, although again it would still be the same outcome.

 

That's what audio tracks on the arrange are for. Recording from an input - this is how I record from my drum machines all day long. You don't need an Aux to do that.

 

 

The only option i have for getting the tracks into audio without recording a input from the sound cards external outputs is to go via aux bus and then to assign that to the audio track.

 

Just set up an audio track on the arrange, set it's input(s) to the input(s) coming from your MPC, enable recording, and record. That's what audio tracks are for. You don't need to be sending any MIDI to a synth to record from an input onto an audio/arrange track.

 

 

How are you monitoring your MPC? Software/input monitoring (via Logic)? Or hardware/direct monitoring?

 

 

Thanks for reply and i do appreciate your interest in this problem but maybe i wasn't clear enough in my post. Just to cover the facts again.

 

There are No sounds coming from my MPC or any external instrument.

 

My Mpc is not transmitting anything but midi information and the sounds being heard are coming from logic instrument tracks.

 

Setting a audio track to record inputs from my MPC is pointless if there are no sounds coming out of it.

 

In a nutshell i am only using the MPC3000 as a sequencer in this case, and the unit that is generating the sounds is in fact logic. I am not using ANY sounds outside of logic. That is the drums keys bass and so on are all being generated within logic.

So you're trying to record software instruments triggered by MIDI coming into Logic via a MIDI input that is fed by an MPC3000?

 

Are you trying to do this live, whilst the MIDI is coming in from the MPC?

 

The least jittery way would be to record the MPC's incoming MIDI first. Then play that MIDI file to your soft synths and record that. Incoming MIDI is timestamped, so the distance between MIDI notes/events is pretty much preserved when the MIDI is recorded to a MIDI region.

 

The MPC3000 has great jitter figures, so we can pretty much remove it from the jitter equation. So what you're dealing with is MIDI input jitter (there's always some), and Logic's MIDI buffer jitter:

 

MIDI jitter might be ruining your live performance

 

Solving MIDI Timing Problems (see Live MIDI Buffering Jitter section, in particular)

 

 

So, with Logic. The least jittery method is to record the MIDI first, then play that MIDI back to your soft synths and record the audio.

So you're trying to record software instruments triggered by MIDI coming into Logic via a MIDI input that is fed by an MPC3000?

 

Are you trying to do this live, whilst the MIDI is coming in from the MPC?

 

The least jittery way would be to record the MPC's incoming MIDI first. Then play that MIDI file to your soft synths and record that. Incoming MIDI is timestamped, so the distance between MIDI notes/events is pretty much preserved when the MIDI is recorded to a MIDI region.

 

The MPC3000 has great jitter figures, so we can pretty much remove it from the jitter equation. So what your dealing with is MIDI input jitter (there's always some), and Logic's MIDI buffer jitter:

 

MIDI jitter might be ruining your live performance

 

Solving MIDI Timing Problems (see Live MIDI Buffering Jitter section, in particular)

 

 

So, with Logic. The least jittery method is to record the MIDI first, then play that MIDI back to your soft synths and record the audio.

 

 

Under stood that your making the suggestion that i in-fact record the midi data into logic first but as said in my original post thats not what i am trying to achieve here nor is the method i am trying to follow, and further more i have never been confident that this preserves the original feel of the MPC3k. Please read my first post

 

Thanks for your suggestions and i will read into the articles mentions. But the problem i am experiencing lies with Logic as it's triggering everything ok up until i hit the record button on the transport bar. That is to say all sounds are in time once the audio tracks are armed. The midi jitter they are referring to is being actived while playing in any situation, I.E. before it's bussed then recorded.

 

Now i am not experiencing any noticeable jitter prior to pressing record, and if i am, due to it all coming of one machine, it's lining up fine (i.e. it's all going to be jittering to the same points anyway so doesn't matter, as i haven't got any other instruments not with jitter it's trying to line up with) .

 

The jitter i am referring to makes the arrangement of of notes unusable it's so bad. (it's not just lagging) The same thing is also happening when i try to record that midi data on to logic (as you suggested) but again this is not what i am trying to do. Side note on recording the midi data, it's even worse when i try to record the midi data, and it places it in relevance to how it's being heard and trust me it's even messier at that point.

 

In short if logic and the MPC are playing these sound fine, even when i am sending them to busses and then to audio tracks, then why is it loosing the plot when i hit the record button? Sure it may have jitter issue prior to this but as said am not trying to use anything outside of logic, sound wise, so it's not a big issue.

...and further more i have never been confident that this preserves the original feel of the MPC3k. Please read my first post

 

Recording the soft synths live will introduce even more jitter (from the articles I posted earlier). Recording the MIDI first, will result in less jitter, therefore preserving more of the MPC's feel than if you record the soft synths with live MPC midi.

 

Anyway, as you don't too have jitter before recording, and the problem appears as soon as you enable recording, this implies something else is going on...

 

Thanks for your suggestions and i will read into the articles mentions. But the problem i am experiencing lies with Logic as it's triggering everything ok up until i hit the record button on the transport bar.

 

Just to clarify. Is it actually happening as soon as you hit the record button? Or is it the recordings that are jittery (when played back after recording)?

 

 

...then why is it loosing the plot when i hit the record button?

 

The only thing I can think of is that you are using Auxes. Auxes incur PDC delays if you have latency inducing plugins on a bus/aux/output. You don't need to use an Aux anyway. Just delete the Aux, but still send to the same Bus from your soft synth track. Then set up another audio track, set that new audio track's input to that Bus, enable the audio track's input monitoring, and record from that audio track. This way, you will ensure PDC isn't messing with your timing (by avoiding the Aux). So, you'll have you'll two audio tracks - where the first (soft synth) track is sending to a Bus, and the second track is recording from that Bus.

 

Just to clarify. Is it actually happening as soon as you hit the record button? Or is it the recordings that are jittery (when played back after recording)?

 

 

...then why is it loosing the plot when i hit the record button?

 

The only thing I can think of is that you are using Auxes. Auxes incur PDC delays if you have latency inducing plugins on a bus/aux/output. You don't need to use an Aux anyway. Just delete the Aux, but still send to the same Bus from your soft synth track. Then set up another audio track, set that new audio track's input to that Bus, enable the audio track's input monitoring, and record from that audio track. This way, you will ensure PDC isn't messing with your timing (by avoiding the Aux). So, you'll have you'll two audio tracks - where the first (soft synth) track is sending to a Bus, and the second track is recording from that Bus.

 

Thanks for the suggestion of just sending the instrument tracks outs as busses and than the audio tracks input as those busses, didn't think of that. I have done it this way but unfortunately am still have the same issues. I understand that the PDC delays will cause issues but it seems there not at fault here.

 

Just to clarify it's only when i press record on logic's transport bar that the midi information is unstable. So if i arm the tracks first and and press play on my MPC it's fine but when i start the physical process of recording sound now thats when the problem occurs.

 

The problem is on play back but it's on the record process as well. It goes without saying that what is played back as audio is only what is recorded as audio, faults and all.

Just to clarify it's only when i press record on logic's transport bar that the midi information is unstable.

 

Is the MPC setup to receive MIDI from Logic? Could there be a MIDI feedback loop - MIDI going back to the MPC?

… Just to clarify it's only when i press record on logic's transport bar that the midi information is unstable. So if i arm the tracks first and and press play on my MPC it's fine but when i start the physical process of recording sound now thats when the problem occurs.

 

 

So everything's OK if you have a track that's record enabled.

 

But everything gets jittery the moment you hit the record button?

… Just to clarify it's only when i press record on logic's transport bar that the midi information is unstable. So if i arm the tracks first and and press play on my MPC it's fine but when i start the physical process of recording sound now thats when the problem occurs.

 

 

So everything's OK if you have a track that's record enabled.

 

But everything gets jittery the moment you hit the record button?

Theres no midi going into the MPC. No midi cable out being used on my audio interface. So it's just a midi out from my MPC going into the audio interface.

 

Yes everything is ok when the record is enabled. Thats means that i can press record on each track so the red "R" is on and there is no problem what so ever.

 

Yes everything goes jittery the moment i hit the record button on the transport bar. So to clarify when record play is active it goes jittery.

So Logic isn't the master clock.

 

You're using MTC?

No MTC no sync simply triggering Audio Units as if there were external sound modules with midi. Works fine until the record has to take place then its hay wire. Funny thing is i have done this before on logic 8 and it worked fine but not in 9.1.8 for some strange reason.

OK, so the clocks aren't synced between the MPC and Logic, and there's no MIDI going from Logic to the MPC…

 

What happens if you just hit play in Logic whilst the software instrument tracks are record enabled for MIDI from the MPC? I'm just wondering if it's the starting of the transport that's causing the problem, rather than hitting record and thereby starting the transport indirectly.

 

So, what happens if you just hit play from Logic's transport bar. Does the MIDI timing go wrong then?

OK, so the clocks aren't synced between the MPC and Logic, and there's no MIDI going from Logic to the MPC…

 

What happens if you just hit play in Logic whilst the software instrument tracks are record enabled for MIDI from the MPC? I'm just wondering if it's the starting of the transport that's causing the problem, rather than hitting record and thereby starting the transport indirectly.

 

So, what happens if you just hit play from Logic's transport bar. Does the MIDI timing go wrong then?

 

 

Ok so i have tried your suggestion of pressing play and not record to see if there is any jitter and yes the jitter occurs as soon as i press play on logic. Interestingly enough once i stop play on logic the jitter goes away instantly.