ES2 Swelling

[Markisflippinsweet]

I'm wanting to make a synth like this, and I think it's the ES2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAdrGKW-94 starting at 8 seconds.
I don't really understand how to do the swelling, mainly. I know it has to do with the cut off/attack parameters, but no matter however much I adjust, I just can't get that swell sound.
Can anyone please help me model a similar sound to this?

Mark

[rainstick]

hey mark - sounds more like AMP than cutoff to me... ?

As far as the synth sound goes it seems like its just a square wave - try playing / programming some basic chords then adjusting the AMP to get the swell to fit... started it off with the attached.

[Eriksimon]

Sort of by coincidence I made a patch on the (free) TyrellN6 synth that sounds very much like this sound...

http://www.u-he.com/cms/tyrelln6

After installing the TyrellN6, put the unzipped patch (a .h2p file) in Library/Audio/Presets/u-he/TyrellN6 folder.


As you can see, the swell is mainly the env1/vca Attack. There's very little filter action (the Mod 1 knob).

Haven't listened to Rainsticks' sound, but his approach is correct imo, so it is probably anywhere from "pretty close" to "nailed it", too.

[rainstick]

ha, the ole tyrells quite in vogue today!

[Markisflippinsweet]

Thanks, Rainstick! It sounds real good. I tried playing around with Amp settings, and didn't exactly see how to it would affect the sound to make it more fitting to the song. How could it?
Erik, that one was pretty close! It's also a major coincidence, because I JUST downloaded that synth 15 minutes before posting this topic! I just hadn't installed it yet. Thanks for that patch!
I originally wanted to design something like this in Arturia's Minimoog V2, but couldn't figure out how to make the swell, nor found any good presets close.
I'm kind of new to synthesis designing, and don't necessarily understand all of it, so most of what I ask probably seems like n00b questions.

Mark

[camillo jr]

By sheerest coincidence, after reading this thread, I downloaded TyrellN6. It's no Zebra but then Zebra is no Tyrell. I may actually learn how a synth works with this thing to play with.

[rainstick]

Well the AMP setting on that patch is controlling the song....

Say you had programmed 1/2 note chords in and wanted them to swell up after the beat, you might want to have a longer setting on the AMP's ATTACK if the tracks tempo is slower than if the tempo was quick.

Its the Attack that's creating the swell up here... The decay will control how long it takes to reach the sustain point, and the release will set how long the tail of the note will be after ( in a similar way to plucking a guitar, let the note ring out = long release, palm mute would be short )

If these terms aren't making sense to you then you need to read up on some synth basics, there's a ton of stuff on a google search here and theres some good stuff on Sound on Sound here

The sound on sound stuff tends be pretty good, there's a lot there.... Then there's also some stuff in the manual... heres an example

Also make sure you just have a mess around with things, set a project up and just move everything about! it's only software, it won't break or anything so it's a great way ( i found ) to gain a better understanding of what thing's done alongside reading things. Put a few chords / notes into a channel, automate some parameters, move stuff about. If you have things midi assigned this can also be a good way to learn as it's a bit more tactile.

hope that helps.

[rainstick]

Camillo, i haven't used the Zebra... It's more expensive though

[rhys]

Can I suggest using that sound with standard amp settings and playing through LFO tool by Steve Duda it will give that exact effect. Relying on the synths amp envelope won't have as much of that effect where the volume is at a high point and whips quickly back down. It sounds exactly like LFO Tool, ive got it working right now but with a random pad patch from es2.

Not to take away from rainsticks solution, just another way of looking at it that's all, my way is just lazier but allows you to flick through sounds and get a similar effect without messing around with your envelopes as critically.

[rainstick]

really? sounds just like the release is down to me... you could always apply a LFO to the volume on the modulation matrix in conjunction with the amps attack, also side chaining will give a similar effect to this.

I would like a way to have a 'sustained attack point' on the ES2, so that you could set an amount of time until the amp went from the attack point to the decay point, but i don't see how it's necessary for this sound.

attached a version with the LFO applying mod as well as the AMP.

[rhys]

Im not doubting your method, and it does sound like the release, agreed but The LFO tool I suggested has a modifiable shape , you can make an exponential curve finishing with a flat upper part to the cycle giving you that "ducking" sort of sound you would get with side chaining. You can not do this with the LFO in the es2 unfortunately it just doesn't have that lfo shape, something similar can be achieved in massive by using the performer or using the cross fader between 2 choice shapes of LFO but LFO tool does it better. No doubt it can be achieved with envelopes, this is just another way, and it's a little more precise as its tracked to tempo so no re adjusting the envelope or setting it just right and also keeps sharp and snappy even if your playing isn't so.

[rhys]

actually I just checked your sound using the lfo on the es2 and sound pretty good with the ramp like you used, good work, actually thinking about it maybe the shape controlling the amp could be manipulated by a mixture of lfo via envelope or vica versa to achieve that exponential sound as the ramp is just linear.

Heres one with the LFO tool, i didn't know if you have it or not so I bounced it in place too incase you don't have it so you can hear it, as you can see very similar result. I used your template btw and took off the amp settings as there was no point rebuilding what you did just to demo the LFO tool.

Also see how that the curve of the resulting audio is more expressive and this can be adjusted by editing the wave shape of the lfo, the es2 is just a straight ramp.

[rainstick]

I don't have the LFO tool, but listening to what was done theres really no need for a third party LFO in order to achieve it. I did exactly the same thing just using LFO 1. (attached)

Of course it doesn't really make a difference how it's done and if your comfortable using the LFO tool (is it free? do you have a link? I'd like to have a gander) that's fine. But for the purposes of this I think it's probably best to stick to basics achievable within logic.

EDIT - one of the potential problems of using a third party LFO for this could be it not following your playing. As in, it will just sync tempo / free run, rather than be triggered by midi info ( or is it triggered by midi notes? ) That's one of the problems (sometimes benefits) i find with with LFO 2, its just sync / free running, it doesn't re trigger every time you play a note. Which is fine if thats the effect you want / or are just playing on the beat, but if you want to switch it up a bit / have the swell effect run with your playing its best to use LFO 1 or the envelopes. (of course sometimes LFO 2 is best and it sounds very nice having the pulse effect running consistently with the tempo and the notes fitting within that.... lah dee dah. )

[rhys]

Yeah I understand yours is essentially achieving the same thing and we are splitting hairs basically lol but if we don't be anal about stuff then we won't learn, I just offered an alternative that has different pros and cons. The LFO tool was 50 bucks if I remember correctly but I don't just use if for that, I use it for ducking a lot and it also has a filter. It's also a better version of logics tremolo, I could go on, basically I use it at least 4 to 5 times in nearly every project for one reason or another, great as a mix tool and an effect.

[Eriksimon]

This particular cat can be proverbially skinned in an equally proverbial gazillion ways.

This same effect could also be achieved using volume automation, or midi CC 7 or midi CC 11, or by assigning expression to aftertouch (provided you have a keyboard with aftertouch, of course).
Using EG attack is by far the simplest though, especially given the fact that the sound is basically the same throughout the song.

Now I need some ice against all this "swelling"...

[Scott Jackson]

I'm wanting to make a synth like this, and I think it's the ES2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAdrGKW-94 starting at 8 seconds.
I don't really understand how to do the swelling, mainly. I know it has to do with the cut off/attack parameters, but no matter however much I adjust, I just can't get that swell sound.
Can anyone please help me model a similar sound to this?

It sounds to me like they just bounced a synth to audio and reversed it.

[Markisflippinsweet]

Rainstick, I made a real dumb mistake... I for some reason over looked the amp settings... I don't have any idea how I did that.
I'll check into those guides. I have general synth knowledge, I'd say. That last patch was almost exact. Thanks so much!
Scott, I thought of that, but he plays it live, so I doubt they'd have that being played backwards. Who knows, though, he may have done that when recording! Or, God forbid, fakes playing it...
Rhys, I'm going to look into that LFO tool!


Mark

[Scott Jackson]

I thought of that, but he plays it live, so I doubt they'd have that being played backwards.

EXS24

Use your sampled sounds in Logic 9's EXS24 sampler

[rainstick]

Rainstick, I made a real dumb mistake... I for some reason over looked the amp settings... I don't have any idea how I did that.

ha, no worries.... I often do worse