Why Sidechain to Ghost Drum Instead of Acutal Kick

LPHelpers:

 

About once a week, I like to watch Future Music Magazine's "In the Studio" videos. It's a great learning experience to watch how the pros work. Most of them, like myself are making EDM, and 9 out of 10 times, it in Logic Pro! Yay!

 

I am very familiar with the process of using the side chain input on a compressor to trigger the compressor when the kick drum hits. This is the process known as "ducking". It is very effective at clearing the path for a 65Hz boom, 128 times a minute. It also gives a feeling of the track beating like a heart and at times is used as much musically as it is for mixing.

 

But these guys invariably, seem to use another kick drum to duck everything, not the actual kick drum in the track. The call it the ghost kick, there is no output.

 

I'm curious why they do this. Other than being able to pump your bass line or synths when the actual kick isn't playing, I don't see the point.

 

Anyone have any wisdom on this matter? Thanks for reading.

simple. what if you want to dropout the drums in the mix, but still want the sidechain to do it's thing (i do this all the time...)

So that's the only reason? I get that, but wanted to know if it had to do with the decay time of the kick or high end snap, given that compressors frequently feature a HPF detector.

 

So do you just make two tracks with the same kick, one being the ghost? Or do you use a particular, kinda plain, short decay type kick?

 

thanks for replying.

i just dupe the main kick (UNLESS, for example, i want the sidechain all 1/4notes, but the song's kick is doing something else).

depends on what u need. but mostly, a dupe of the original kick, but no output to the mix from the dupe track...

So that's the only reason?

Often, yes. Let's say you have a hi-pass filter on the kick during a break, and you want to have the bass continue pumping, you need a ghost.

 

I get that, but wanted to know if it had to do with the decay time of the kick or high end snap, given that compressors frequently feature a HPF detector.

Why not, maybe the kick you're using in the song doesn't give you the desired triggering effect with your compressor, so you just use another one.

 

So do you just make two tracks with the same kick, one being the ghost? Or do you use a particular, kinda plain, short decay type kick?

You use whatever triggers the compressor the way you want it to be triggered to get the bass sound you want. For example if you want a slow release on the bass compressor then a longer decay kick might work better.

 

PS: For what it's worth, I've seen producers who don't even sidechain a kick to a compressor but just bounce the bass to audio, slice it into multiple regions and apply fade-ins to all the regions. Just... do whatever works and gives you the sound you want!

It's not necessary with a ghost track to get ducking when the kick isn't audible: send pre-fader from the kick track, and volume automate the kick track level fader down in sections where you want ducking but no audible kick drum.

 

Voila.

It's not necessary with a ghost track to get ducking when the kick isn't audible: send pre-fader from the kick track, and volume automate the kick track level fader down in sections where you want ducking but no audible kick drum.

 

Voila.

 

that works, UNLESS you want different things to happen with the kick drum in places... but seems to me a ghost track would be simpler. nothing to automate.

 

whatever works. 8)

You can also use a "ghost" trigger to be really short and sharp and then use the compressor settings to completely shape the amount, length, depth of ducking, which in many cases is a big advantage. I like regular sidechain ducking, but I've also more and more used Vengeance Multiband Sidechain comp (which doesn't need a sc trigger, but has envelopes you can tweak), where I can make the low end (crossover freq and other parameters user-configurable) duck heavily from under the kick (for eg.) and let the higher freq content not duck at all or only, say 25-50% compared to the low end. This way you can for eg. leave more low end in the pads or leads, which can create a fuller sound, yet the mixing is still easier, because there's no bass interfering with the kick. Waves C6 can be used for similar stuff (and more) triggered with an external ghost kick (or other source, like vox dropping some vox freqs off of a synth line to make a touch of more room, when the vox are on)

Wow. I thought this was a pretty straight forward topic. Now, there are international DJ/Superstars commenting on my post. Thanks Darude, that sounds like a really useful method.

Haha, "superstars"... Just a fellow Logic user, but thanks for the compliment! This is why this forum is still alive and kicking strong in these times of social media revolution: there's real life users with real life feedback and solutions, great sense of humour and very little petty not-picking. Kudos to David and the mods!

Bought Vengeance Multiband Sidechain^2. Trigger it with the kick, ghost kick, MIDI, or nothing at all. Love it. Thanks. The C6 seems like a lot of plugin for me right now. Maybe down the road.

In order to have the most control over compressor attack and release times, it seems a short click (maybe even as short as 1ms) would make the most sense as a "ghost" side chain controller. That way the release can be set to the exact tempo division (1/4 note, 1/8th note, 16/th note at host tempo). i.e at 123 (244ms, 122ms, 61ms)...and then the "ghost" kick, could be pulled back 5-10ms early, and the attack could be set to 5-10ms (same ms as offset), to prevent any "clicks" from having zero attack on the compressor....so compressor at full GR at the exact moment the kick transient hits, and releases at practically the exact moment before the next hit in tempo (1/4, 1/8, or 16th).

 

Make sense? I've experimented with longer "ghost kicks", though I think I get the most precise results when the ghost trigger is between 1ms and 30ms or so (about a 32nd note at the tempo).

Kudos to David and the mods!

I know that's an old post but I'd never seen this before. Thank you Darude!

Kudos to David and the mods!

I know that's an old post but I'd never seen this before. Thank you Darude!

 

I missed that one too.

Thank you Darude, it means a lot!

but no kudos for the rest of us?

but no kudos for the rest of us?

I say kudos to ALL of us: after all, this board is made possible thanks to the help of ALL of us, not just me and the mods. Seeing fellow music producers taking time out of their busy lives to help others on this forum always puts me in a good mood.

but no kudos for the rest of us?

I say kudos to ALL of us: after all, this board is made possible thanks to the help of ALL of us, not just me and the mods. Seeing fellow music producers taking time out of their busy lives to help others on this forum always puts me in a good mood.

 

awww....

 

for me personally...it's taking time out from the forum to MAKE music. i know where my priorities are... 8)

In Finland we have this term 'mielensäpahoittaja' and I've struggled with finding a good word for it in English... Now I figured it out: it roughly translates to 'fisherking'

Finnish: Mielensäpahoittaja "a person who always gets upset". i'm too upset now to post again today....

Finnish: Mielensäpahoittaja "a person who always gets upset". i'm too upset now to post again today....

That's why there's a "rude" in the middle...

Hello guys,

 

I was wondering about how you mix your kick and bass? You let your kick last the whole beat?

 

I was thinking about making the kick last a 1/4 of the beat (using volume shaper from cable guys) and making an inverse side chain (using volume shaper too) on the bass and sub bass at 100%, so when the kick hits theres no bass so they won't collide (I think Alesso did it on Tear the roof up). Other possibility would be making it 1/2 the beat and the bass 1/2 the beat (I think Ingrosso did it on Reload).

 

Anyway, I thought that by doing this it would be phatter since there's no need to cut the bass frequencies, but at the same time it feels a bit unnatural. So how do you guys cut the bass frequencies and how do mix with the bass? Also how long do you think the kick should last and how do you think the pros mixes bass and kick?