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Leaving Logic to die a slow death


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Its pointless...... And completely obsolete. Logic x is such a huge disappointment for me I am looking in an entirely new direction. Sad really. I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on Logic over the past decade and a half. Not to mention all the time spent learning an amazing program from PLATINUM(PC)..... Through 7(My Favorite) Buggy 8.... Somewhat Stable 9..... (Finally becoming reliable in the later releases)... Only to be bummed that 10 would not work on my very capable 8 core buffed out to the max MAC. Bummed but still very curious I installed X on my MBPro. First though.... Dumbed down 9 trying to copy Ableton with (smart controls). They changed the names of a few things, Confusingly changed the location of a few things..... And left the plugins exactly the same, save for the new look eq. that I actually like, A lot! But everything els is identical.... And if you are a melodyne user... The Flex Pitch is just not that good, honestly.....

Probably my Biggest complaint..... The exs 24 is still a Huge pain in the butt to edit sample patched in... and unless you are using presets, takes entirely to much time to fuss with. For several years I took on learning Redmatica.... Intensely complicated, but well made Sample editor for exs. Then Apple buys them.... Now what? Am I just crazy... But EXS is EXACTLY THE SAME.... Many years later... MANY!!!

 

After Apple bought Redmatica, and stopped releasing updates, I decided to use Ableton Live as a rewire Instrument specifically for SAMPLER. You can edit your patches so simply and straight forward in SAMPLER, that its hard looking back.

 

The Best thing I can say about LX other than the new nifty eq. look, is the MIDI Plug ins... A few years late, But they work well.

 

Over all... Logic always sounds better on my rig than Ableton. I will continue to mix in Logic, work in Logic 9 with Ableton live rewire.

But my friends who have made the switch to PT for mixing have become very convincing that PT is the superior mix DAW. Bummed......

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Over all... Logic always sounds better on my rig than Ableton. I will continue to mix in Logic, work in Logic 9 with Ableton live rewire.

But my friends who have made the switch to PT for mixing have become very convincing that PT is the superior mix DAW. Bummed......

This is what actually shows you don't have much clue what you are talking about.

 

You can argue that the workflow is better, that plugins are better, ANYTHING actually, but claiming that "logic sounds better than Ableton" and that PT is superior *mix daw*(whatever) is just completely ridiculous.

What every NULL TEST (which is scientific, unlike hear-say from your friends) will prove.

 

Flex pitch is nicely laid out. Cubase's first instance was also crummy. I'm sure they'll improve the algo along the way.

 

And I do own Logic Pro X, Cubase 7.5 and PT 11 - all three of them, latest versions. I have no tendency to switch to either of the two, I bought them because I need them for collab. If I did I'd go to Cubase. But frankly, it offers nothing really worth switching. Some things are better, some are worse, it happens that those that are worse are the ones I like in Logic.

 

Still, I won't go prancing around making erroneous claims that they sound different. They don't. They look different, they force you to work differently, but that is all. If Logics workflow isn't for you, thats fine, but that doesn't mean its in any way inferior than any of those two. Or that any of those two are inferior to logic.

 

However, go and try find a surround mixing solution from Steinberg or Avid... ;)

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Maybe, Ploki, you are not understanding the intention of my original post..... But since you brought it up.... on my rig, Ableton does not sound as good as LOGIC 9... Logic is sonically thicker to my ears. I mix Audio in Logic 9 and it works really well. I don't like the way Logic x feels. I don't like the way the exs sampler is the same as it always has been... or how apple seemingly killed Redmatica, or the fact that every plugin Logic offers has not changed at all from version 9 to 10... That was my trip. Im not a scientist, so you are probably correct in stating that I don't know much about the quality or sound differences between Logic and Protools.

I also notice that you did not claim to be an Ableton Live user. But you do use PT and CB. Have you ever compared Logic to Ableton? Have you ever rewired Ableton into Logic...after creating and arranging a project in Ableton. The difference is completely obvious on my rig, but that is really not the point of the original post.

I guess the original point of the post is to express my dissatisfaction with LX. After years of learning and working with Logic. All the excitement of them purchasing Redmatica, A program I still use(with no support)... The years of hype building up to it, and I feel let down. Thats all....

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Maybe, Ploki, you are not understanding the intention of my original post..... But since you brought it up.... on my rig, Ableton does not sound as good as LOGIC 9... Logic is sonically thicker to my ears. I mix Audio in Logic 9 and it works really well. I don't like the way Logic x feels.

 

I did understand your intention, but you lost some credibility when you started talking about logic sounding better than Ableton. Really, I don't even like ableton, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

And as I said, its completely legitimate to not like the feel and workflow of a DAW, but talking about sound quality of it is just gibberish.

 

I did work with Ableton when I was doing an album for a band, because they had a lot of their backing tracks made in ableton. So I did use, I'm just not fond of it, and I don't own it.

I can also understand why you don't like mixing in ableton, but it doesn't sound inferior at all, its just more clumsy for straightforward mixing session.

 

Logic X is pretty regularly updated, and while I do think that the update was rushed (I use retina display and 90% of plugs look awful), and I criticise exact same thing; that plugins look outdated, because they do; I still think its coming along nicely and am looking forward to 10.1. I also think that what redmatica brought to the table will eventually be implemented in EXS24. when it gets updated.

 

Ableton has a completely different approach when it comes to creating and arranging, and if it suits you; use it; and don't worry because you might think it sounds worse than logic; i can assure you that it doesn't, perhaps you just didn't find the right approach to mixing in it; yet.

 

No reason to switch to protools either. :)

 

cheers

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In defense of "dragon theory" I must add that EXS24 is a bit fiddly and doesn't have anywhere near-enough voices. Also, I have never been able to get a completely nulled i/o session in Logic 9 or 10 as I have in Pro Tools 6,7, or 9. Using the "Journey: Don't Stop Believin'" test (a perfectly clear tune with dynamics, real instruments, no auto tune, and no sequencers) original WAV file is re-recorded through the interface at unity gain, etc.) I have always been able to flip the phase and nudge the second track until the audio is nulled. This is with all Delay Compensation, etc. off so that the locked audio is not permitted to slide around: I think that's the most important Pro Tools difference even back to the AMIII and Digi 001 stuff: When it's locked, it's locked.

 

But Logic is really great for composing now that Studio Vision was killed by Gibson. A combination of tools according to my needs is what works for me. Sometimes you need a scalpel, other times an axe, and most of the time all the things in between the two.

 

dragontheory: Don't give up on your knowledge. These are just tools for recording. The melody is the most important thing in music and that will never change. These companies were designed to take your money and break your heart, and it won't be the last time. Knowing this will give you power.

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I criticise exact same thing; that plugins look outdated, because they do

 

Just curious.

What makes a plugin look "outdated?"

If all of the necessary controls are there.

What are you guys comparing it to to qualify it as "outdated."

Well, its not HiDPI ready.

I'm comparing it to the rest of logic pro X and to Pro Tools 11.

 

Where everything else (and now EQ) in logic has 4pixels, old plugins has 1.

That makes them look choppy and outdated. Outdated in a sense that they don't support apples latest pro computer to its full extent.

 

For example if you have Bass Amp and Guitar Amp open at the same time, Bass Amp looks fine, and Guitar Amp looks like your vision broke.

 

Yeah its superficial, but it looks a lot nicer and I don't know why it shouldn't.

 

It's the placebo effect that people need.

 

It looks new and revamped so in conclusion it MUST sound better.

Nah... It need not look new, just so it supports HiDPI. Its as ridiculous as if it wasn't updated for the colour display 20 years ago. I would make HiDPI versions myself, but there's something missing so you can't, old plugins are locked at non-retina res.

 

:lol:

So true.

And some folks just need to find something to complain about all the time.

 

You two should feel like jerks at this point. :)

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It need not look new, just so it supports HiDPI. Its as ridiculous as if it wasn't updated for the colour display 20 years ago. I would make HiDPI versions myself, but there's something missing so you can't, old plugins are locked at non-retina res.

 

You didn't explain that in your statement above. You just said

I criticise exact same thing; that plugins look outdated, because they do

 

I know you mentioned that you use a retina display but you did not make the correlation.

 

Also, most users of Logic are not yet using retina displays so I'm sure that it was not on the top of Apple's to do list to accommodate the small number of people that are using retina displays.

 

You two should feel like jerks at this point. :)

 

Why always so hostile Ploki?

 

Frankly, your attitude on a lot of threads just makes YOU look like a jerk. :roll:

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Why always so hostile Ploki?

 

Frankly, your attitude on a lot of threads just makes YOU look like a jerk. :roll:

 

Um, did you notice the smiley, Scott?

 

It wasn't hostility, it was a joke.

 

Ploki was pointing out the irony of complaining about complaining. Which was actually kind of funny.

 

I also don't see where the problem is with Ploki having a little moan about Apple not making its products presentable on their flagship monitors. Seems like a perfectly valid thing to moan about to me; eye-strain, comfort of long mixing sessions etc..

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Um, did you notice the smiley, Scott?

 

Yes, I did.

 

A smiley face after an insult is nothing more than passive aggression. It's akin to saying you're so fat and ugly...just joking...ha ha ha. Or, you're an idiot...Aw, I'm just messing with you man.

 

It wasn't hostility, it was a joke.

 

Ploki was pointing out the irony of complaining about complaining.

 

That's a major assumption.

 

 

I also don't see where the problem is with Ploki having a little moan about Apple not making its products presentable on their flagship monitors. Seems like a perfectly valid thing to moan about to me; eye-strain, comfort of long mixing sessions etc..

 

I addressed that when I wrote...

 

Also, most users of Logic are not yet using retina displays so I'm sure that it was not on the top of Apple's to do list to accommodate the small number of people that are using retina displays.
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Why always so hostile Ploki?

Frankly, your attitude on a lot of threads just makes YOU look like a jerk. :roll:

I made a smiley, that means i was kidding, not really hostile, sorry if it came across like that.

I just didn't like the patronising approach you had towards my opinion about plugins so I thought i'd stab you with a joke about it, just a little.

Since you automatically assumed/complained that i'm complaining because they didn't "change something" and i think "it would sound better because it looks better". (notice no smiley here)

 

Also, most users of Logic are not yet using retina displays so I'm sure that it was not on the top of Apple's to do list to accommodate the small number of people that are using retina displays.

That's beside the point completely. Retina is apples own professional computer offering soon to be the only apples laptop offering (frankly, the classic unibody hasn't been updated since july 2012 even when it was still offered) and protools 11 offered retina support before apple offered it in their own DAW. Its just a half-assed approach from Apple.

And the fact that LPX is getting GUI updates slowly I suspect that the case is the same as with FCPX: 10.0 is a Beta. 10.1 will be the actual LPX. It happens. No apologetics here... It's pretty clear that the release is half-baked.

 

So no, you didn't really address anything, except your assumption about % of Apple retina users.

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I made a smiley, that means i was kidding, not really hostile, sorry if it came across like that.

 

You're an ASS!!! :)

 

I made a smiley so I hope you know that I'm just kidding. :lol: :mrgreen:

 

Really, I wrote that to make a point, you're not really and ass.

 

Since you automatically assumed/complained that i'm complaining because they didn't "change something" and i think "it would sound better because it looks better". (notice no smiley here)

 

Actually Ploki, triplets suggested that. (and yes, I get the condescension i.e. "notice no smiley here.")

 

Also, most users of Logic are not yet using retina displays so I'm sure that it was not on the top of Apple's to do list to accommodate the small number of people that are using retina displays.

That's beside the point completely. Retina is apples own professional computer offering soon to be the only apples laptop offering (frankly, the classic unibody hasn't been updated since july 2012 even when it was still offered) and protools 11 offered retina support before apple offered it in their own DAW. Its just a half-assed approach from Apple.

And the fact that LPX is getting GUI updates slowly I suspect that the case is the same as with FCPX: 10.0 is a Beta. 10.1 will be the actual LPX. It happens. No apologetics here... It's pretty clear that the release is half-baked.

 

So no, you didn't really address anything, except your assumption about % of Apple retina users.

 

It's not beside the point and it's not an assumption. Retina displays on laptops was introduce just over a year ago. Retina is only in a very small percentage of displays that are being used for Logic (or any other program). At this time retina displays are a minority and the majority tends to rule. This may or even probably will change in time but that is yet to be seen. I have six monitors between my multiple systems and not one is a retina display.

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(point taken about first paragraphs)

 

About the last one, I don't think you understood me: they made *half* of logic retina ready, and *half* not, which means it most certainly is changing, because Logic X at 10.0.0 was retina ready; except the plugins weren't. And the new plugins use a completely different GUI handling approach; which is not only about being "retina ready" but also directly related to how logics GUI is drawn as a whole, meaning Logic X is in fact "half-done" as its obviously intended to be. So even if you argue that plugins aren't visually out-dated, they are out-dated in the manner the GUI is implemented, compared to the rest of Logic X.

 

ProTools 11 is 100% retina ready, and i'd be very surprised if Pro Tools has a bigger market share on Retina devices. (But we're assuming without any real numbers here - again, so pointless)

 

This is Apple's own software that is *not* keeping up with its own hardware, and you are again only assuming the market share of retina users. So until we're talking real numbers, its kinda pointless to argue about it, we could go as crazy as "most people don't use more than 4 channels at once, so multitrack recording at this point is not necessary" as well, since the app is being rewritten this could be postponed as well.

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Fair enough Ploki.

 

Regarding the number of retina displays in use compared to standard displays, I'm not making an assumption. I'm making an educated guess based on all factors. Of course I could be wrong but considering all factors I'm probably not. As I said above, this will possibly (maybe probably) change if everyone adopts the retina display but that is yet to be seen.

 

Peace!

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This thread is all related to feature bloat: When the components of software and hardware signal processing reach the limits of the design abilities of the engineers, things are not really improved as much as they gain "features" like enhanced GUI resolution and "Smart Controls", etc. The following link has one of the best articles on what happens when development and bug-fixing begins to stop in favor of the Next Thing and why we're all essentially beta-testers. Shifting baselines and such: http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1770
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I told you that we're beta-testing logic. :P

I suspect that the case is the same as with FCPX: 10.0 is a Beta. 10.1 will be the actual LPX. It happens. No apologetics here... It's pretty clear that the release is half-baked.

However having a different way of handling GUI (as opposed to fixed size PNGs) is not only "features", it optimises performance and allows for greater flexibility (such as plugin GUI size) which isn't a bad thing at all.

 

 

@Scott Jackson: The new EQ is retina ready by the way!

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  • 4 months later...

Update: Tried out the demo of PT 11.1.8. It couldn't handle 2 mono playback tracks, 1 stereo playback track, and one stereo recording track @ 24/44.1. Running one instance of the mastermeter on the master fader track brought the cpu to its knees. Glad it was a demo.

Advice: Avoid unless you are going to spring for a full HD system. I can still run PT9.0.6, but it's just dicey and I can't trust it to record a stereo track without it pitching a fit. I'm sticking with Logic X and an Edirol as a backup for piano performances.

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I think it's all a matter of business priorities.

 

Avid was/is hurting financially so they started to communicate with their user base. I even got an email asking me about my PT experience.

They HAVE to survive as a company, if they don't want to get bought by somebody else.

 

Apple is in no hurry. They updated LX more times than ever, compared to previous versions, so that's pretty impressive.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey! I've solved the PT 9.0.6 problem: I bought a used 003 Rack and an ART Tube-Opto 8 preamp: I can now record 16 24/48khz tracks at once with one media drive via FW400 by clocking the 003 to the ART's ADAT port. I can do the same thing in Pro Tools 7 on either of my old G5s running Tiger. The sample offset difference @ 24/48 is -25 samples. No matter what Apogee tells you, a USB 2 bus does not have adequate bandwidth compared to Firewire 400 for synchronized multitrack audio. Tonight I tested for 175 minutes of continuous 16 channel recording with one FW400 drive. The CPU barely moved, even when going back and punching in 16 again in the middle of what I'd already done. This was on the Mini i7. Basically the same performance as my "old fashioned" G5 DP 2.0Ghz with 2 GB RAM. Yes, it weighs 70 lbs and sounds like a vacuum cleaner, but it lives in the basement and can run headless.

 

FWIW: I can do the "Don't Stop Believin' Loop Test" in Pro Tools 6.4, 7.4, or 9.0.6 and get a complete null. I can get really close in Logic 10.0.7 (sample offset is +1 @24/44.1 with the Apogee Duet iOS/Mac version) but it never nulls. The audio is "Slidey" in Logic and locked in Pro Tools. But I still won't update to PT11.

 

Cheers.

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No matter what Apogee tells you, a USB 2 bus does not have adequate bandwidth compared to Firewire 400 for synchronized multitrack audio

 

Totally agree with you on this. I remember Apogee trying to convince everybody that USB 2 is even better than firewire and that you have enough bandwidth in USB 2. Yeah, sure...

 

Latency is not better with USB 2. And forget about putting the buffer on 32 with the Duet 2.

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