MS Processor/Shuffler, or . . Chaos

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MS Processor/Shuffler, or . . Chaos

Postby fader8 » Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:32 am

OK, there's a lot of different ways to set up a Mid-Side process in Logic 8, but here's one I like to use for various things. While this example could be used for simple boring bass shuffling and MS EQ for mastering, it's much more fun for playing around with spatiality on lush pads or fat leads.

I've split the stereo track to two pairs of mono aux's, assigned L, R, L, R respectively. The polarity and the panning is swapped for the second pair. The linear EQ's on aux 3 & 4 allow you to swap low shelves for high shelves, depending on whether you want to "decentralize" the high end or low end.

With aux 3 & 4 all the way down, there's no effect. Bring up those faders slowly, which are grouped in this example, and you'll hear the widening effect depending on how the EQ's are set. This is nice for fine tuning a final mix, but it's very handy for opening up a string section stem, for example. Try dragging a full mix onto the audio track in this example and try it out.

But taking it a step further for synth tracks, try mixing up various and sundry plug-ins, eg distortion, chorus, delay, dynamics, etc., on the four auxes individually. Rhythmically automating the mute of the aux 3 & 4 group can be interesting too.

Most of all, have fun.
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f8_MS_Shuffler.logic.zip
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Postby camillo jr » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:29 pm

Fader8 I am intrigued. I have started using MS processing with FabFilter's ProC compressor. It's very cool what you can do with that. But your set-up looks more flexible. What is "Bass shuffling"?
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Postby fader8 » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:14 pm

camillo jr wrote: What is "Bass shuffling"?

If you think of a stereo mix as being three components, left, right, and center, or Mid, and together the Sides of the stereo image, then you can consider that the perceived width could be changed by increasing the gain of the sides and decreasing the center of the image.

Bass shuffling is when you do this only with the bass components of the signal.
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Postby ChicoSatis » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:26 pm

Always love your tips Fader. Thanks again for taking the time.

HAve a good one. :D
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Postby majool » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:56 pm

thanks fader 8.

definitely get some interesting effects out of your template. i know you mentioned that there are many ways to do it in logic, but i'm a little lost though as to how it would work for m/s mastering as you mentioned. is there no decoder? also, what about the 6dB gain drops? i've only recently been exploring m/s mastering in logic

i just set up a m/s template recently and have attached that. i'm assuming i've done it correctly, but would like to know if i've missed something since what you've got going is totally different from my set-up.

as far as i understand it, the formula should be:
encode:
m = .5 x (l+r)
s = .5 x (l-r)
decode:
L= M+S
R= M-S

thanks!
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Postby fader8 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:13 am

majool wrote: i'm a little lost though as to how it would work for m/s mastering as you mentioned. is there no decoder? also, what about the 6dB gain drops?

It's a different way to skin the cat, just with different options. I've attached a more "traditional" MS processing template here too. One technique may fit for some things while the other doesn't. Anyway, try this one out too.
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f8_MS_Encode-Decode.logic.zip
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Postby majool » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:29 am

cheers will check that out
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Postby majool » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:33 am

just realized i never uploaded my method to share/examine. jeez...can't get the upload to work. oh well...
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here's my m/s setup

Postby majool » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:37 pm

thanks fader 8 for sharing.
here's my simple m/s duties setup. alas, i think i figure out how to upload! sorry for the multiple posts
:shock:
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Simple MS.zip
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Postby camillo jr » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:15 pm

fader8 wrote:
camillo jr wrote: What is "Bass shuffling"?

If you think of a stereo mix as being three components, left, right, and center, or Mid, and together the Sides of the stereo image, then you can consider that the perceived width could be changed by increasing the gain of the sides and decreasing the center of the image.

Bass shuffling is when you do this only with the bass components of the signal.


More intrigue. Since bass tends to be omnidirectional, how does this effect the stereo width? Or is it done for another reason? I could imagine using the mid channel to push up or pull down the bass. Or maybe use the bass in the sides to make a more omnipresent bass?
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Postby fader8 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:59 pm

majool wrote:here's my simple m/s duties setup.

Cheers, majool. That method works very well.

camillo jr wrote:Since bass tends to be omnidirectional, how does this effect the stereo width? Or is it done for another reason?

Typically you'd use this for troubled mixes. Lopsided bass, or if all the bass elements have been jammed in the middle. But it can be used creatively too, to just add spaciousness, or remove it, etc. Keep in mind that these techniques have to be used very subtly in mastering or they'll destroy or change a mix too much. For sound design however, anything goes.
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Postby majool » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:04 pm

also, worth noting that brainworx has a free encoder.
http://www.brainworx-music.de/index.php ... =2&lang=en

it's a great and quick tool, but unfortunately i haven't been able to get complete cancellation when testing it (near complete though) which makes me a bit skeptical and old fashioned.
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Postby fader8 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:20 pm

majool wrote:it's a great and quick tool, but unfortunately i haven't been able to get complete cancellation when testing it (near complete though) which makes me a bit skeptical and old fashioned.

Well, it's all about what you're going to use it for. To be frank, for mastering type work, I use the Waves MS Matrix -> EQ -> S1 Imager or Shuffler. But for mad scientist synth work, that brainworx plug or the routings I posted above, can be a lot of fun.

Muhuhahaha!
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Postby fader8 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:54 am

This thing:
http://www.mathewlane.com/DrMS.html
looks pretty cool for thrashing about the stereo field. Just came to my attention.
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Postby camillo jr » Mon May 18, 2009 7:50 pm

Speaking of bass (and treble) shuffling Fader 8, have you looked at Sindo?
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Re: MS Processor/Shuffler, or . . Chaos

Postby FNHNY » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:44 pm

fader8 wrote:
I've split the stereo track to two pairs of mono aux's, assigned L, R, L, R respectively. The polarity and the panning is swapped for the second pair. The linear EQ's on aux 3 & 4 allow you to swap low shelves for high shelves, depending on whether you want to "decentralize" the high end or low end.


aux 3 and 4 on this file (thanks for the file btw!!!) have the phase reversed...shouldn't it just be Aux 4?
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Re: here's my m/s setup

Postby lagerfeldt » Wed May 09, 2012 1:55 pm

majool wrote:thanks fader 8 for sharing.
here's my simple m/s duties setup. alas, i think i figure out how to upload! sorry for the multiple posts
:shock:

Thanks, I'll be using this for my students tomorrow at university.
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Re: MS Processor/Shuffler, or . . Chaos

Postby lagerfeldt » Thu May 10, 2012 11:28 am

David, shouldn't this be in the Templates subforum?
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Re: MS Processor/Shuffler, or . . Chaos

Postby David Nahmani » Thu May 10, 2012 12:04 pm

lagerfeldt wrote:David, shouldn't this be in the Templates subforum?

You're right! I moved the thread.
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