Setting up patch names for external synths

[ERO]

Ok, I've been using Logic Pro 8 for 3 months. I absolutely loved the program until I got to the Environment. Logic is great if you work 100% in the box; however, try to use external synths and it's an absolute nightmare. This is the most convoluted, bass-ackward system for controlling external synths I've ever seen.

What are the people at Apple thinking? I've already set up my "environment" in the Audio MIDI Setup utility. That should be enough. Logic should be able to look at my setup and configure what it needs from that. Why do I need to go to all the hassle of entering patch names, or finding environment objects on the Web? This is something all the other DAWs provide - but not Logic. Why doesn't Apple just include all the objects with the Logic package? Or find another way to set up patch names within Logic. This is ridiculous... I have spent hours and hours trying to get the Environment configured so I can change patch settings on external synths. It isn't worth the trouble.

Apple... please fix this... soon.

ERO

[ski]

If you're going to go so far as to say the whole Environment sucks then that's going too far. Seems that what you're after is having the patch names of your synths appear in Logic automatically, and no, that's not something that Logic does automatically. The Environment isn't about pulling in patch names, so your gripe, while not unfounded, has no bearing on the Environment.

Secondly, using external synths is a... nightmare? How? It should be a piece of cake even if you didn't first define your synths in AMS: all you have to do is create a new instrument (or multi-instrument) in the Environment and set the MIDI port it's connected to. Voila, done.

Finally, you shouldn't have to do ANY Environment programming to get MIDI synths to work (other than what I said above, and even that's not always necessary if you've set up your synths in AMS prior to launching Logic). If there's anything other than synth patch names that are causing you to mess with the Environment, then just STOP. You don't need to trouble yourself. But if there's something else you're looking to achieve through Environment programming, post back. There are several people here who are very knowledgeable about the Environment who can help you.

[David]

Agreed, none of what you're needing requires the environment. You should reformat your feature suggestion and simply ask for a better "external synth patch name" import system in Logic 8 - which is something I would agree with.

[ERO]

"Agreed, none of what you're needing requires the environment. You should reformat your feature suggestion and simply ask for a better "external synth patch name" import system in Logic 8 - which is something I would agree with."


David, how can you say I don't need the Environment? What I'm trying to do is control 3 external synths and select patches for each one inside Logic. A couple of these synths have expansion cards that I also want to be able to use. As far as I can tell the only way to set these up is in the Environment. But it's proving to be a huge hassle...

Thanks for you help.[/i]

[fader8]

"What I'm trying to do is control 3 external synths and select patches for each one inside Logic. A couple of these synths have expansion cards that I also want to be able to use. As far as I can tell the only way to set these up is in the Environment. But it's proving to be a huge hassle...

ERO,
You haven't said what your hassle is! Entering patch names? Configuring bank changes?

[stevenson]

ero,

you definitely do not need to be dealing with the environment at all just to use external synths.

you should be easily able to get external synth multi's with the patch names all sorted out for you and then just copy and paste them into the environment and that's it.

the environment is an immensely powerful tool but you only use it when you need it - and i am pretty sure from your post you really don't need to be dealing with it.

again - post back precisely what it is you want to do and i am certain you will get the help you need.

[ERO]

"You haven't said what your hassle is! Entering patch names? Configuring bank changes?"

Here's the problem: I have three external synths, a Korg M3, a Roland JV-2080, and a Roland XV-5080. The two Roland units each have several expansion boards installed. I have searched the web for multi-instrument objects for each synth, and have found a few. I found a JV-2080 object on the web, and it works fine. I also located and copied the JV expansion boards - they now work fine. I have likewise found an XV-5080, but have not been able to find all the SRX cards for the XV. The ones I have found I copied into the 5080 object and they don't work. I haven't been able to find a Korg M3 object anywhere. So in order for my system to work, I either need to find all the SRX boards and an M3 somewhere, or I need to manually enter hundreds of patch names and bank changes to create the objects from scratch.

My point here is that this whole process is ridiculous. These things should come with Logic (as with most other DAWs) and Apple should provide a much simpler process for setting up external synths.

Thanks,

ERO

[inmazevo]

I totally agree that it's less than optimal to set up patch names in the environment, and would love an easier solution.

You can search around online, as you've noticed, and find some things, but not everything, and an editor or importer that helps you quickly and easily create one would be great. Not holding my breath for something like that though.

These things should come with Logic (as with most other DAWs)

That's a tricky statement, because it's dependent upon which hardware you're using, and which DAW you're using. Some DAWs will have instrument definitions for some hardwhere, while other DAWs will have instrument definitions with other hardware. None of them have all of them.

With my hardware (Roland JV1010, MC307, XP60... Yamaha RS7000... Korg Z1), Cakewalk Sonar had all of them except the 307, which was easily found. Setup was straightforward once I figured it out, though not easy, particularly where expansion cards were concerned.
With the same hardware, Logic Pro doesn't cover the bases as well, and Cubase was flat out useless.
Even still, I see this same complaint over on the Sonar forum: "Sonar needs to come with instrument definitions for 'XYZ' synth."
So, while for me Sonar was excellent for this, for others it's flat out useless.

However, there are other ways to get control that are in some cases more useful than Patch selection. Patch/Performance selection is great when you're scrolling through presets or saved user presets, but if you've tweaked the performances and patches, and are out of memory space on the hardware, there's no equal to sysex messages.

Since discovering sysex, I'll likely never use patch/performance instrument definitions again.

But, yes... I agree... it would be nice to have better coverage.

- zevo

[ski]

The patch name list can be copied/pasted from an ordinary text file.

I've never done this before, but I just tried it out and it's a piece of cake (ish) and much easier than typing in each name one at a time... Assuming you can get the patch name list for the M3 or any of your other pieces of gear online, as long as each name is separated by a normal carriage return ("return"), you can copy the names and paste them into the patch name list in the Environment. That's about as deep as you'd need to program anything in the Environment to do the job.

Here goes. First of all, go here for the M3 patch list:

http://www.korg.com/service/downloadinfo.asp?DID=1250

Download the .pdf of the patch name list. Open it in Preview Select a bank of 128 sounds with the text tool in Preview. CMD-C copy. Assuming you have Word, paste the clipboard into a new document. Use the Convert Text to Table function, using " " (space) as the delimiter. You will now have a table that has the patch number separated in its own column, and several other columns to the right.



You can safely delete the last few columns, as they contain the category and other information, not needed.



Then merge the 2nd and 3rd colums (because some of the patch name's words would have become separated into separate colums by virtue of the space delimiting)



Select that column, CMD-C copy, and then use the "paste all names" function in the patch name window in Logic for that synth:



Again, I did this very very quickly, never having done it before myself, and though it's not 100% perfect, it's do-able. I totally agree that there should be an easier way to do it. But it's not an impossible feat. I'm not defending Logic, just saying that what you want to do here is not a matter of "The Environment SUCKS!!!" but rather a limitation of Logic's ability to import patch names.

Hope this gives you some ideas on how to achieve this, pain in the ass though it may be.

[fader8]

These things should come with Logic (as with most other DAWs) and Apple should provide a much simpler process for setting up external synths.

Wow, you should have just said what your problem was in the first place! I'm not sure what you mean by "as with most other DAWs" as they all seem to have their quirky ways with this. Cubase Patch scripts and DP/PT midnam files, while some may come with the app, they're certainly not comprehensive and most have been user submitted anyway.

Pursuant to the excellent suggested workflows given above, there's an awesome little free app, Cherrypicker:
http://www.alterspective.com/cherrypicker/

. . which allows you to load a midnam, Cubase or FreeMIDI file for example and copy a bank for pasting into Logic. Works a treat.

[David]

"Agreed, none of what you're needing requires the environment. You should reformat your feature suggestion and simply ask for a better "external synth patch name" import system in Logic 8 - which is something I would agree with."


David, how can you say I don't need the Environment? What I'm trying to do is control 3 external synths and select patches for each one inside Logic. A couple of these synths have expansion cards that I also want to be able to use. As far as I can tell the only way to set these up is in the Environment.

I explain that whole process in my book. But basically you setup each instrument in Audio MIDI Setup (in your Utility folder). Then in Logic you create and external MIDI instrument track, choose the instrument from the Library, double-click its track name to get the patch name window, and paste all the names from your text editor, after following the suggestions of Ski and/or fader8 to get all your names in a list in the text editor.

Although if the device doesn't respond to the default bank change events, then you may have to open the environment to define custom bank change events.

[rm_music]

Apple should be doing MUCH more to support hardware synth users. Folding a librarian/editor into Logic's toolkit couldn't be so difficult. Emagic created the application (SoundDiver) 10 years ago.

I've used every Mac DAW there is: the defunct Opcode Vision performed MIDI scanning of hardware MIDI devices which automatically loaded the patch names. Digital Performer comes with patch name documents included.

Apple Logic offers no help at all for accessing patch names, and for Roland modules or expansion boards, it's a manual job. When a fully-expanded device contains over 1000 patches, that's a major hassle.

Apple has discontinued SoundDiver, one of the only Macintosh patch editor-librarians. Which is a tragedy, since it easily captures every patch name directly from the synth, even the User customized patches.

The manuals for Roland's SRJV-80 expansion boards are scanned from old paper documents, the text isn't selectable or copyable. So it's down to manual typing for Roland users. And then you still have to manually tweak the MSB & LSB settings for the multi-instrument in Logic's Environment.

Moderators: Trying to make frustrated users feel dumb or lazy isn't going to endear you to those who know the real story. Defending Apple's shear laziness on this issue is ignoring the white elephant in the room.

[ski]

Moderators: Trying to make frustrated users feel dumb or lazy isn't going to endear you to those who know the real story. Defending Apple's shear laziness on this issue is ignoring the white elephant in the room.

Nice. First post and you're already criticizing the mods, and apparently without at least understanding even the spirit of what I wrote (I being one of the mods)...

From my first reply:

"If you're going to go so far as to say the whole Environment sucks then that's going too far. Seems that what you're after is having the patch names of your synths appear in Logic automatically, and no, that's not something that Logic does automatically. The Environment isn't about pulling in patch names, so your gripe, while not unfounded, has no bearing on the Environment."

(emphasis added)

IMO, you and anyone else who suggests that Logic is sorely lacking in the ability to extract patch names are 100% justified in your criticism. The rest of my posts had to do with offering a workaround. Do you know how much time it took me to research and post that stuff, pics, procedures and all? Probably way more than you'd want to give me credit for. And it's still imperfect. And clearly, my posting all this stuff is a faaaaaaar cry from the feature you guys are asking to see; implicit in my reply, therefore, is not a defense or endorsement of the way Logic functions (or not) in this respect.

Making forum members feel dumb? Tch. I think not. "Offering free and detailed help even to attempt to workaround Logic's various deficiencies" is more like it.

[inmazevo]

I, for one, found the "workaround" post quite useful.
I'm actually glad this thread got bumped, since I'd forgotten about it, and need to setup my external gear this weekend.

Take care,
- zevo

[David]

Moderators: Trying to make frustrated users feel dumb or lazy isn't going to endear you to those who know the real story. Defending Apple's shear laziness on this issue is ignoring the white elephant in the room.

While I agree with your statement, I just re-read this whole thread and couldn't find anything in either of our posts that would make the Original Poster feel dumb or lazy. Which part are you pointing at?

If you read my first answer, I actually agree with the OP about his gripe regarding patch names. If you read Ski's comments, he also agrees about the whole patch naming issue! But I had to move this thread from the "Feature Suggestion" forum because no developer is ever going to read a thread called "Logic Environment sucks". If anything that would turn them away from reading our forums, which wouldn't help any of us at all.

I simply think the original post was confusing several issues. The "external MIDI instrument setup" part is wrong: the setup in Logic 8 is as easy as it possibly could be, or ... well almost. The patch name importing is a hassle, and on that part I agree Apple could do better, even though IMO that's far from being a priority since the workaround is not that bad. I'd rather them spending time ironing out bugs.

[ERO]

Since I started this thread a few months ago, I just want to jump in again with a few comments. First of all, looking back, I was very frustrated with the Environment as a new user. Now that I've been using LP8 for a few months, it makes more sense and I can see that it does offer some flexility. However, since no other DAW uses Logic's "object oriented" approach to signal flow, I found it especially difficult and frustrating trying to get my head around it. And, probably like many Logic converts up against a project deadline, I was forced to deal with it in order to get my external synths working properly.

I want to thank Ski for taking the time to detail the process of getting patch names into Logic. I used his process (above) to create new multi-instrument objects for my external synths, and it worked great. It took some time, but I now have things working the way that I wanted. Thanks Ski!

I would be happy to post my new multi-instrument objects for the Korg M3, Roland JV-2080, and XV-5080, with expansion boards, if someone would please tell me how and where to do this.

Lastly, I really hope that Apple addresses this issue in a new release of Logic Pro. The current process for setting up patch names in external synths is far too complicated and slow. This would not be difficult - Apple could simply set up a page on the Logic Pro web site where users could download objects for any available synth or expansion board.

Thanks again to everyone who helped with this.

ERO

[Real]

Look, I am still new to Logic Pro 8 and I wouldn't say it sucks I would say it is hard to understand at times. We as people tend to hate things we don't understand once you understand it you will like it.

[David]

OK, at ERO's request the title of the thread was changed to "Setting up patch names for external synths". Seems better suited.

[buzwah]

Ero,
Just a suggestion. Try this. He has a channel with tons of short Logic Tutorials. One talks about your particular issue. Patch names etc. He has a link to a Logic song that has virtually almost every synth available with the how to instructions of getting them into Logic. I found it very helpful.
Good luck.

[aof21]

hello

thanks ski for posting that detailed tutorial on how to do the patch names. I'm really new to hardware but my boss had a couple of old synths lying around and I thought I would travel backwards in time and set up a studio like it's 1995. wow, I never realized I was so spoiled with soft synths. it took me days to figure out where to even begin with all this midi stuff. In Pro tools I got all into the midnam files but actually once I finally located a patch list for my Yamaha EX5R (which strangely isn't part of the manual but in a separate guide) I was able to just copy and paste into word and then into Logic... so thanks!

Now to my question. I see all the patch names, but how do I change the BANK names? The drop down menu above the patch list in the environment for bank just says a number and then (names of bank 0 used, not initialized) but I don't see where I can edit the bank names.

Could someone help me out? Much appreciated thanks!