Keyboard with no octave shift, can Logic work this mess out?

Logic Pro X (and older versions) questions and troubleshooting

Keyboard with no octave shift, can Logic work this mess out?

Postby Plax » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:46 pm

Hi everyone. I bought a Studio Logic VMK 161 master keyboard and it's great. The only thing that's driving me crazy is the lack of octave shift commands. This keyboard has nothing at all to shift down to C1 and C0 octaves, and I absolutely need them to play and trigger keyswitches. Does anyone know how to solve this problem? Does Logic have some trick to shift octaves with no use of pitch shifting or plugins like that?
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Postby ski » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:00 pm

Easy.

Click on the background of the arrange page. Then set the transpose parameter in the Inspector to -12 (or whatever value you want). This adjusts the "MIDI Thru" parameter for transpose. Here, "MIDI Thru" is an adjustment made to all incoming MIDI data (until you change it again). Velocity is another MIDI Thru parameter you can adjust.

There are other solutions too which involve a tiny bit of environment programming so that you can adjust the octave using a control on your keyboard. Post back if you want details.
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Postby Plax » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:11 pm

Ski, thanks for your reply. I already tried your tip and obviously it works. The problem, though, is still there because even though Logic gets the single note I want, my keyboard still sends the same signal. A C2 stays as a C2, regardless of any transposing. If you have some time I'd like to know a bit of the programming thing you were mentioning. It would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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Postby ski » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:22 pm

Gotcha.

What's happening here is that the MIDI Thru adjustments are applied to the region. One thing you could do is set up a key command for "normalize" which will take the realtime parameter adjustments ("MIDI Thru settings") and apply them destructively to the data in the region. Example: if you recorded a C3 and your MIDI Thru transposition was at -12, after doing the normalize thing you'll see a C2 in the region. After you normalize, the realtime parameter settings for the region will be zero'd out.

Meanwhile, the MIDI Thru adjustments will remain in force for anything else you play in (until you change them).

Search your key commands for "normalize" under the Arrange window heading.

If you'd like to set up an environment which transposes the input without having to resort to the MIDI thru and normalizing routine [EDIT] see my next post.
Last edited by ski on Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ski » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Here are your options:

1. You have one switch on your controller which you dedicate to switching the octave down -12 and back again to zero. In operation, Switch On = transposed, Off = normal

2. You use two switches on your controller, one which increments the octave down (-12, -24), another which increments the octave up (+12, +24). In operation, you'd hit the first switch 2x to transpose the keyboard two octaves down. You'd then hit the other switch 2x to bring the keyboard back up to the normal octave.

3. You have three switches. One which increments the octave down, another which increments the octave up, and another to instantly reset to zero.

For each of these you must specify which CC you're going to use for each function. But please keep in mind that in offering to build this for you (or at least show you how to do it), please specify your minimum requirement. In other words, if all you need is #1, please don't ask for #2 or #3 if you really don't need that kind of functionality. Thanks for your understanding.
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Postby Plax » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:10 am

Thank you again Ski. What I was looking for was #2: this is the octave shift function I had on my previous master keyboard (it was an Edirol) and I think every keyboard should be like that (talking about 4/5 octaves master keyboards obviously). If you have some time to explain #2 I'll be happy to learn!
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Postby shivermetimbers » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:16 am

Do you have a link to the manual for that model? Most of the Fatar's have some sort of Transpose feature.


You may want to use a few of the Lowest keys and change their values via the Environment. The rest of the keyboard can remain intact.
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Postby Plax » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:27 am

Thanks for that. The manual I got with the keyboard is really short and doesn't mention any keyboard editing feature.
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Postby ski » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:37 am

Looks like Shiv sorted you out. But lemme know if you still need that environment thingee.
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Postby BvC » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:14 pm

ski wrote:Here are your options:

1. You have one switch on your controller which you dedicate to switching the octave down -12 and back again to zero. In operation, Switch On = transposed, Off = normal

2. You use two switches on your controller, one which increments the octave down (-12, -24), another which increments the octave up (+12, +24). In operation, you'd hit the first switch 2x to transpose the keyboard two octaves down. You'd then hit the other switch 2x to bring the keyboard back up to the normal octave.

3. You have three switches. One which increments the octave down, another which increments the octave up, and another to instantly reset to zero.

For each of these you must specify which CC you're going to use for each function. But please keep in mind that in offering to build this for you (or at least show you how to do it), please specify your minimum requirement. In other words, if all you need is #1, please don't ask for #2 or #3 if you really don't need that kind of functionality. Thanks for your understanding.


I would actually love to know how to do number 2 here. The Yes/+1 and No/-1 buttons on the synth that I am using as a MIDI controller (Yamaha DX-11) are capable of sending MIDI messages (I know, as I had assigned them to pan up and down), and I need to assign them to octave up and octave down, respectively.

I am using Logic 9, Mac OSX 10.6.7, and am using an M-Audio Fast Track Pro as an audio interface. (Bear with me; trying to abide by forum rules.)

Glad I did my research before posting a new thread. I hope this gets noticed, as it's something I've been trying to accomplish for a long time.
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Postby ski » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:30 pm

If you can, enter your system's info in your user profile (signature section). OK, that aside...

Before I post more, I need to confirm what CC values are being sent from the inc/dec buttons. I'd imagine that they'd be CC's #96 & 97, but please confirm (press those buttons and then look in Logic's transport, MIDI monitor section).

Once I know what those values are I can post an environment for you that will do the octave switching thing.
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Postby BvC » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:04 pm

Thank you for your reply, ski.

They are indeed CC#s 96 (inc) and 97 (dec). I've checked with Logic, as per your request.
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Postby ski » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:10 pm

Cool. I'll post something for you later this evening. Stay tuned!
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Postby camillo jr » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:45 pm

Glad I checked in here. That normalize command is just what I've been wanting, for the same reasons Plax mentions.
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Postby ski » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:36 pm

OK, here ya go:

CC#96 and CC#97 change the octave. Two octaves down, two octaves up, and the normal octave, of course. I didn't put the environment objects (components) into a macro, but that can be done very easily if you want to compact the whole thing. Anyway, here's how it works:

Input Transpose On/Off Button

• When off, the entire environment "circuit" is bypassed, i.e., normal operation

• When on, hitting CC#97 repeatedly decreases the octave (-2 octave max) and hitting CC#96 repeatedly increases it (+2 octaves max). The green "octave" menu will display the current transposition.

• When you select an octave setting, notes will be transposed on input, meaning that incoming notes are transposed on their way into Logic. Changing the octave has no effect on the playback of regions already recorded.

• All non-note MIDI commands pass through this scheme unaltered

• You can also change octaves by click/hold/dragging on the green Octave menu

• The CC#96 and #97 buttons are for testing purposes. If you don't need them, feel free to delete them (select them, hit delete).

Caveat: do not hold down notes while you switch octaves. Otherwise you'll create "stuck notes". Should this occur, however, simply start and stop Logic and the stuck notes will be silenced.
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Postby shivermetimbers » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:58 pm

Wouldn't a $3,000 Zenriffer keytar work just as well? It has those two octave buttons already built in. :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQF0oervpoU&feature=related
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Postby ski » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:21 pm

Jordy's a friend of mine, so maybe I'll send him an email and see if he's up to the challenge of doing the same thing on a DX11! :mrgreen:
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Postby shivermetimbers » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:52 pm

Oh he would look so cool with an eye patch ...

I should try this on the DX-7. I think you have other environment versions of this from way back when.
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Postby ski » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:00 pm

shivermetimbers wrote:Oh he would look so cool with an eye patch ...


:D

Y'know, I do think you're right about my posting something like this a while ago. Hmmm... Oh well, second time's a charm? :lol:
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Postby BvC » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:16 pm

ski wrote:OK, here ya go:

CC#96 and CC#97 change the octave. Two octaves down, two octaves up, and the normal octave, of course. I didn't put the environment objects (components) into a macro, but that can be done very easily if you want to compact the whole thing. Anyway, here's how it works:

Input Transpose On/Off Button

• When off, the entire environment "circuit" is bypassed, i.e., normal operation

• When on, hitting CC#96 repeatedly decreases the octave (-2 octave max) and hitting CC#97 repeatedly increases it (+2 octaves max). The green "octave" menu will display the current transposition.

• When you select an octave setting, notes will be transposed on input, meaning that incoming notes are transposed on their way into Logic. Changing the octave has no effect on the playback of regions already recorded.

• All non-note MIDI commands pass through this scheme unaltered

• You can also change octaves by click/hold/dragging on the green Octave menu

• The CC#96 and #97 buttons are for testing purposes. If you don't need them, feel free to delete them (select them, hit delete).

Caveat: do not hold down notes while you switch octaves. Otherwise you'll create "stuck notes". Should this occur, however, simply start and stop Logic and the stuck notes will be silenced.


Utterly amazing! Thank you! I had no idea this could be done in a way that was so easy for me. I suspected you'd tell me how to do it, not do it for me!

It's nice to know there are people in the world who are eager to help a stranger out of plain goodness. I truly appreciate it.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but the increment button is currently making the octave go down, and the decrement button is making the octave go up. If there's no quick fix for this, I can work around it.

Thanks again! :D
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