The dominant chord in a minor key...

[ansthenia]

Hey everyone

I have read from a few websites/books that it is a good idea to turn the "Vm" chord into a "V7" chord when you are working in a minor key, so that it points more strongly to the "I" chord. But wouldn't you then be out of key by changing the minor 3rd in the "V" chord into a major 3rd? I don't understand how this works as you would also have to change that note in the melody to avoid sound dissonant, or is that the whole idea? I was thinking maybe you should make that a permanent change for the key?

So for example if you are writing in A minor, change the G to a G♯ and keep it that way for both the harmony and the melody?

How does this whole idea work?

Thanks for your help

[David]

That's called Intermodal exchange, where you borrow a chord from another mode. So even though you're in Am, you use the V of A Maj. Think of it as changing key just for that one chord. It's used all the time in pop music.

Whether the change is permanent or not is up to you. Some songs will use it sometimes but not always, making the result even more interesting. You have to do it tastefully obviously.

Try playing this:

||: Am C | G | Am C | G E :||

The E could also be E7... depending on the result you want.

[camillo jr]

I have read from a few websites/books that it is a good idea to turn the "Vm" chord into a "V7" chord when you are working in a minor key, so that it points more strongly to the "I" chord.

Well, it's a good idea only based on what kind of music you're writing. There's a lot of this in Classical music and lots in certain pop music too. It isn't really a rule so much anymore, just one more way of using scales and chords.

In a Western / European traditional sense, there are actually three kinds of minor scales which are all used depending on the harmonic context. Changing the 7th note of the scale to major results in the harmonic minor scale, like this:

Harmonic minor scale
A B C D E F G# A

But that is sometimes modified by also raising the 6th, for melodic reasons, into this:

Melodic minor scale
A B C D E F# G# A

In the first instance, raising the 7th results in a minor third between the 6th and 7th, which sometimes sounds fine and other times doesn't, hence the Melodic variation. You'll notice that the Melodic minor scale results in a scale that's very similar to the regular major scale, except that the third is minor, not major.

Note that the chords which would go with those two scales would be different too..... using the Harmonic minor scale, you could have this kind of progression:

A minor, D minor, E major, A minor

But using the Melodic minor scale, those chords might be changed to this:

A minor, D major, E major, A minor

But don't think that the regular minor scale with it's flat 6th and 7th is to be abandoned, oh no! There's tons of movie music and pop music out there that use this, right along side the two variants. It's what is known as a more "modal" or folk sound.

You are correct when you say that the major third in the V chord, which is the 7th note of the minor scale, "points" more strongly towards the tonic note. That's semitones for ya - they do tend to pull towards their neighbor, like the way the 4th note of the major scale wants to go to the third sometimes. But the gentler tug of the flatted 7th of the scale is a totally valid musical element. Think of all the songs that have, say, an A chord as the tonic or main key chord and there's also a lot of G chords in the same song. Classic rock couldn't live without chords like that!

HTH.

[camillo jr]

That's called Intermodal exchange, where you borrow a chord from another mode.

David, I've never heard of that term before; that's a great way of putting it!

[David]

Examples of intermodal exchange in pop music:

Dandy Warhols - Get Off
• The song starts with the chords Am, C, G, Am, establishing the key of A minor.
• @ 0:12, the E (which contains a G#) is an intermodal exchange. That's your V right there, borrowed from the key of A Major.
• The Chorus, @ 0:50, uses the same chords, where the E is again, an intermodal exchange.

Another one, more obvious, where the singer plays with the minor/major 3rd:

Marcy Playground - Sex And Candy
• The song starts with a B. The singer is on the major third, the note D#, clearly establishing the key of B Major.
• The second chord is a G, and the singer hits the 5th, the note D, borrowing from the key of B minor.

Kind of an extreme example, which could be analyzed in different ways:

Georges Brassens - Les Passantes
• The first chord is Am. In fact @0:03 the lead guitar arpeggiates an Am chord, clearly establishing the key of A minor.
• The second chord is G, we're still in A minor.
• @ 0:12 he starts singing, and plays an F chord, still in A minor.
• @ 0:14 he plays an E chord, that's your V, borrowing from A major.
• @ 0:16 he plays... an A Maj chord! Well that's clearly borrowing from... A major!! I love that chord. Just in case you weren't sure, the lead guitar lands on a C#, the major 3rd, then ventures into a little phrygian dominant riff that gives it an arabic sound.

[lookatthisguy]

That's called Intermodal exchange, where you borrow a chord from another mode.

David, I've never heard of that term before; that's a great way of putting it!

Yeah in my theory courses they were just called "borrowed chords." I like that terming better… almost lets me sound more pretentious.

[jordito]

Intermodal exchange

That's the first time I've seen it called like that. I know it as modal interchange...sounds less like a bank this way

J.

[lookatthisguy]

Intermodal exchange

That's the first time I've seen it called like that. I know it as modal interchange...sounds less like a bank this way

J.

Professors and languages (and women). ¿What can you do?

[David]

Intermodal exchange

That's the first time I've seen it called like that. I know it as modal interchange...sounds less like a bank this way

J.

Yeah modal interchange! That's what I said!

Borrowed chord... that's so... pedestrian.

[ansthenia]

Thanks for the replies everyone

Ok so I have been looking into the Melodic minor scale and it looks very interesting, just a few things I don't quite understand in it's execution.

I understand the difference ascending and descending but I don't fully understand why it turns back into natural minor going down.

Let's say the V7 chord is being held for a while and I wanted a descending melody with it. I would descend in natural minor, but then two of the notes would clash with the major 3rd in the V7 chord.

So if I was in Am, A and G in the melody would clash with G#. Why wouldn't you also descend in melodic minor so the notes match the chords? I know you go back to natural minor to preserve the minor sound, but then the notes melody are different from the chord and you get an unwanted dissonant sound.

I'm probably asking a stupid question but I would like to fully understand the application for this scale and I'm just a little lost with the clashing notes when descending.

Thanks for your time

[lookatthisguy]

Intermodal exchange

That's the first time I've seen it called like that. I know it as modal interchange...sounds less like a bank this way

J.

Yeah modal interchange! That's what I said!

Borrowed chord... that's so... pedestrian.

Ohh, you shoulda seen the tweet-length rant I posted on Facebook about not learning the cool words in college…

(among my favorite responses from a friend: it was a state school…)

[camillo jr]

Thanks for the replies everyone

Ok so I have been looking into the Melodic minor scale and it looks very interesting, just a few things I don't quite understand in it's execution.

I understand the difference ascending and descending but I don't fully understand why it turns back into natural minor going down.

I think that evolved to re-emphasize the minor key. But these days, it's really more a matter of using your ears. The thing about playing the natural minor scale going down is that you would only do that if the chord had changed back to something that worked with those notes. It's not a rule, more a convention. And it's kind of a "classical" convention. But in jazz, for instance, you might be playing the melodic or harmonic scales right over the tonic minor chord! And it would sound great in the jazz context but you won't get much of that in pop music.

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

To continue Camillo's point as to "why" the melodic minor is different ascending than descending...

Bear in mind that originally there probably was no "why" other than someone playing it and thinking it sounded good. While there are some fundamental principles behind the diatonic system (primarily balancing the two tetrachords either side of the mid-scale note), Western music is largely custom, built on experimentation, fashion, and reinforcement of tonal asthetics.

Here's a classic melodic minor melody; Frank Zappa's Peaches En Regalia (melodic minor part starts at 0'20")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ-u2jwttmg

[camillo jr]

"I do not think those notes mean what you think they mean"!

Rev, maybe I'm misunderstanding but to me that Zappa bit sounds more like he's just alternating between A Major and A minor modes. I don't hear that as a melodic minor scale.

And now you've reminded me of a tune I've always meant to learn! One more item to put on my practice list....

[Beer Moth]

Greensleeves.

[camillo jr]

Greensleeves.

That's a great example.

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

Rev, maybe I'm misunderstanding but to me that Zappa bit sounds more like he's just alternating between A Major and A minor modes. I don't hear that as a melodic minor scale.

Oh yeah, I should've checked before I posted it, and that's one I can play!

I just remembered it was different ascending and descending and jumped to the wrong conclusion...

Thinking about it as A major/minor is a good way to think about it, I think of it more as swapping between B natural minor and phrygian, but that's probably more to do with how I visualize scales.

And if you're working it out; the guitar parts are ok, it's the piano sections that are head-bending!

[camillo jr]

Rev, maybe I'm misunderstanding but to me that Zappa bit sounds more like he's just alternating between A Major and A minor modes. I don't hear that as a melodic minor scale.

Oh yeah, I should've checked before I posted it, and that's one I can play!

I just remembered it was different ascending and descending and jumped to the wrong conclusion...

Thinking about it as A major/minor is a good way to think about it, I think of it more as swapping between B natural minor and phrygian, but that's probably more to do with how I visualize scales.

And if you're working it out; the guitar parts are ok, it's the piano sections that are head-bending!

I did start on it the other day. Flex to the rescue!! (The poor man's Amazing Slow Downer.)

And now I've discovered that the twisty organ bit with all the arpeggios gets transposed later in the song. You pretty much have to learn it twice!

[Rev. Juda$ Sleaze]

I did start on it the other day. Flex to the rescue!! (The poor man's Amazing Slow Downer.)

Clever! Maybe I will buy Logic 9 at some point...

And now I've discovered that the twisty organ bit with all the arpeggios gets transposed later in the song. You pretty much have to learn it twice!

Good luck with getting that up to speed!

If you get that nailed, let me know if you fancy an internet cover-collab

[jmastawoods]

In common practice music (classical form) the 7th scale degree resolves to the tonic note of the scale in a major key.

To provide a minor scale with the same "semitone" pull to the tonic, the harmonic minor was developed.
The problem is, the harmonic minor creates an augmented 2nd between the 6th and 7th scale degrees (tones). So the melodic minor scale raises the 6th as well as the 7th on the way up the scale.

There is no purpose for them to be raised on the way down in the purely classical sense, because the original purpose of the harmonic and melodic minor scales were to resolve the "leading tone" (7th note of the scale) to the tonic note more smoothly.

Hope this helps