External midi instruments "drifting" (bad sync)!?!

[Document Swell]

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.

I've ruled out USB hubs as a problem.

It's gotta be the DAW, as external midi syncs perfectly in Ableton live.

I feel that I've tried most of the multitude of midi and midi sync options in Logic.

This is really weird. Midi used to sync fine last year when I was using a Juno 106.

Any help would be much appreciated

cheers,

-Simon

[ski]

Simon,

Can you describe the drift a little more specifically? For example, are you talking about drift where the metronome is playing consistently in time, but the MIDI parts are coming in and out of sync with respect to it? Or does the metronome drift too?

I feel that I've tried most of the multitude of midi and midi sync options in Logic.

Are you talking about a MIDI clocking situation, where you're feeding MIDI clock to external synths (for keeping arpeggiators or similar tempo-based effects in time), and it's the MIDI clock timing that seems to be drifting?

Also, does this happen with all projects or just this specific one?

[Document Swell]

Thanks for your reply Ski.

Yes, the metronome, audio parts and soft-synths all play in time, while external midi instruments drift in and out of sync.

Yeah I suppose it's a MIDI clocking situation. Unfortunately I don't have a huge amount of knowledge about midi clock timing. I'm pretty new to extensive midi setups in general.

And yes it happens with all projects.

There are no delays when playing my master midi keyboard.

It just seems like Logic is sending out a clock that is:

1. 1/2 a second too early.

2. About 1bpm slower than the project tempo.

Hope this helps.

I suppose this is a fairly rare problem as I haven't been able to find any other info on it

[ontrackp]

Try turning midi clock off, the synths don't need it to play the notes back that Logic is sending them. Also make sure the synths are not sending midi clock, you should be able to switch it off in the synth midi transmit menus or filter it in Logic. You should also check to make sure that you're not sending any additional data other than the notes and associated controllers by accident.

[robertg]

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.

I've ruled out USB hubs as a problem.

It's gotta be the DAW, as external midi syncs perfectly in Ableton live.

I feel that I've tried most of the multitude of midi and midi sync options in Logic.

This is really weird. Midi used to sync fine last year when I was using a Juno 106.

Any help would be much appreciated

cheers,

-Simon

Also don't use the external midi plug-in, it doesn't properly delay compensate. I'd monitor with an aux instead

[ski]

Yeah I suppose it's a MIDI clocking situation. Unfortunately I don't have a huge amount of knowledge about midi clock timing. I'm pretty new to extensive midi setups in general.

It's still not clear if you are in fact using sounds in your external synths that need MIDI clock to allow certain kinds of effects to play in sync. Is this in fact the case?

It just seems like Logic is sending out a clock that is:

1. 1/2 a second too early.

2. About 1bpm slower than the project tempo.

Hope this helps.

See, that doesn't sound like a MIDI clock problem. I have an idea of what it might be, but I'd need you to answer the question above first.

And since you said that you're not that familiar with extensive setups, I'll recapitulate what ontrackp said above in that MIDI being sent to external devices doesn't require any kind of clocking whatsoever. However, when you're trying to get certain kinds of beat-sync'd sounds to sync to play in time with Logic, that's when MIDI clock (MIDI Beat Clock) needs to be transmitted from Logic. And in such cases, those devices must be able to respond to MIDI clock (and not all do). And then, more often than not, sending MIDI clock from Logic isn't enough; you have to enable reception of MIDI clock in the device.

Otherwise, MIDI clock should be turned off.

[Barely]

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.


cheers,

-Simon

Hi Simon,
I have the same problem and was sure it is my Virus TI behaving badly.
You should always give external midi instruments the chance to "catch" the timing. That means, it's a good idea to leave the first 1 or 2 bars of a song empty.
2 basic things that I once didn't think of: (Doh!)
You could check if you have a midi-loop, meaning, check if you feed the midi clock back somehow. This can be a redundant midi out/through cable. In your config, you should have no cable from instrument OUT to interface IN.
Some devices need to be set to receive and use midi clock (midi clock external). Check if your instruments do receive midi clock.
Then, check if your midi interface is at the usb port closest to the computer. Try it with and without a hub. If on a hub, try it together with and without other devices on that hub.
At Logic, File-Project preferences-sync, midi tab (Hope it's called like this on an english version), check if Midi Clock is sent to the right port and channel (the um-2 has 2 ins and outs, right?)
There is a delay function at that tab that should compensate for soft synth delay. Logic sometimes pre-renders stuff a few miliseconds before it is actually audible. I don't need to use it, but depending on your song/setup, you might have to. You could freeze as many tracks as possible to take some load off the cpu.That function doesn't help with drifting speed, but maybe a mix of these things can help you
Oh, and don't send MMC or MTC, that creates a LOT of traffic on the midi ports, and is only used by "old" tape machines and video stuff and such, normal midi instruments can be overwhelmed by that traffic.
Good luck,
Barely

[robertg]

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.


cheers,

-Simon

Hi Simon,
I have the same problem and was sure it is my Virus TI behaving badly.
You should always give external midi instruments the chance to "catch" the timing. That means, it's a good idea to leave the first 1 or 2 bars of a song empty.
2 basic things that I once didn't think of: (Doh!)
You could check if you have a midi-loop, meaning, check if you feed the midi clock back somehow. This can be a redundant midi out/through cable. In your config, you should have no cable from instrument OUT to interface IN.
Some devices need to be set to receive and use midi clock (midi clock external). Check if your instruments do receive midi clock.
Then, check if your midi interface is at the usb port closest to the computer. Try it with and without a hub. If on a hub, try it together with and without other devices on that hub.
At Logic, File-Project preferences-sync, midi tab (Hope it's called like this on an english version), check if MTC is sent to the right port and channel (the um-2 has 2 ins and outs, right?)
There is a delay function at that tab that should compensate for soft synth delay. Logic sometimes pre-renders stuff a few miliseconds before it is actually audible. I don't need to use it, but depending on your song/setup, you might have to. You could freeze as many tracks as possible to take some load off the cpu.That function doesn't help with drifting speed, but maybe a mix of these things can help you
Oh, and don't send MMC or MTC, that creates a LOT of traffic on the midi ports, and is only used by "old" tape machines and video stuff and such, normal midi instruments can be overwhelmed by that traffic.
Good luck,
Barely

If you are using your TI in USB/VC mode, then it almost was certainly was behaving badly.. they have had a lot of problems with sync/timing/pitch issues trying to pipe data over USB.. I own one myself and it can be a real headache.

In traditional MIDI mode however, it's spot-on perfect. So I have to disagree with your post. MIDI does not need any "catching up" to the timing.

The delay function you mentioned is however necessary to compensate for the round-trip delay of the soundcard if you're monitoring the synth through software. I have to set my regions to -17.6 until it's time to record..

[Document Swell]

Thanks everyone for their advice. I've tried turning off all MTC options, have filtered incoming midi and turned off my external instruments outputting midi. I'm starting to believe it is some kind of bug which probably has something to do with the health of my computer at the moment. Maybe it has nothing to do with MIDI. As soon as I hit spacebar (play) external midi plaback starts instantaneously while all audio and softsynth regions start a approximately 200-500ms later.

I've tried deleting and reinstalling Logic 9.00 but this hasn't helped. I think I'm going to have to reinstall my OS.

cheers,

[ski]

First, you definitely don't want to be on Logic 9.0.0. It was very buggy. Suggest at a minimum to update to 9.0.2 (if you can even find it). Otherwise, 9.1.5 is a good one.

Second, several of us have explained/discussed MIDI clock, and I asked if any of your sounds actually require it to stay in sync. Without your reply to that question and others, there's really no way to try to help you pin down the problem. But at the very least, don't use 9.0.0.

[Document Swell]

Hey Ski,

I don't actually know if the EPS 16+ or the Yamaha TX81z synth need MTC or not to stay in sync. I'm assuming it doesn't matter because the same issue happens whether MTC is on or off. Most people have recommended turning it off. The problem also occurs with my Korg EA-1. What kind of instruments do need MTC to stay in sync? If it's just a simple Midi out straight to the synth/sampler, why should it have anything to do MTC?

Listen. I described in my first post that I was using Logic 9.1.7. I've since reinstalled with the Logic CD therefore it's now 9.0. Therefore I've ruled out the Logic version as the problem.

What other details/responses do you need?

cheers,

[Document Swell]

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.


cheers,

-Simon

Hi Simon,
I have the same problem and was sure it is my Virus TI behaving badly.
You should always give external midi instruments the chance to "catch" the timing. That means, it's a good idea to leave the first 1 or 2 bars of a song empty.
2 basic things that I once didn't think of: (Doh!)
You could check if you have a midi-loop, meaning, check if you feed the midi clock back somehow. This can be a redundant midi out/through cable. In your config, you should have no cable from instrument OUT to interface IN.
Some devices need to be set to receive and use midi clock (midi clock external). Check if your instruments do receive midi clock.
Then, check if your midi interface is at the usb port closest to the computer. Try it with and without a hub. If on a hub, try it together with and without other devices on that hub.
At Logic, File-Project preferences-sync, midi tab (Hope it's called like this on an english version), check if Midi Clock is sent to the right port and channel (the um-2 has 2 ins and outs, right?)
There is a delay function at that tab that should compensate for soft synth delay. Logic sometimes pre-renders stuff a few miliseconds before it is actually audible. I don't need to use it, but depending on your song/setup, you might have to. You could freeze as many tracks as possible to take some load off the cpu.That function doesn't help with drifting speed, but maybe a mix of these things can help you
Oh, and don't send MMC or MTC, that creates a LOT of traffic on the midi ports, and is only used by "old" tape machines and video stuff and such, normal midi instruments can be overwhelmed by that traffic.
Good luck,
Barely

Hey Barely,

Thanks for your reply.

No I don't think it's the same issue. I have no MIDI coming back to Logic. It's a simple midi out (of the UM-2 or Audio Kontrol 1) into the synth/sampler. I've checked that the clock is going out the right port. Although it sounds like MTC has nothing to do with (it appears I don't need MTC therefore I'm leaving it switched off). All I am trying to do is have the Logic MIDI playroll play external synths/samplers back in time. The problem happens with an empty project (just external instrument channel and audio in channel) so it has nothing to do with midi traffic or cpu load. If I have a simple synth/sampler blip on every down beat of a 4/4 bar, it is extremely obvious that the sounds are coming back 200-500ms earlier than the metronome or any audio/soft synth regions in the project.

Even if it was a midi catch up thing, this would not be suitable for me as it would destroy my workflow.

As I've said, THIS PROBLEM IS EXCLUSIVE TO LOGIC!!!!!!!! It doesn't happen with Ableton. And it doesn't happen when I'm using a drum machine to sequence my synth/samplers.

As I stated in an earlier post "As soon as I hit spacebar (play) external midi plaback starts instantaneously while all audio and softsynth regions start a approximately 200-500ms later"

[Document Swell]

Thanks for your reply.

What is the external midi plug-in? Do you mean the external midi channel? I'm using the external midi channel to play/record and am monitoring/recording this with an audio channel.

I've also monitored directly out of the synth/sampler to make sure it isn't a problem with my audio interface.

thanks

:twisted:

Hi there,

My external midi instruments are "drifting" in Logic. It seems like it is some kind of clock issue. I was wondering if anybody knew about this annoying problem?

When I hit play in logic the external MIDI starts immediately while there is a half second lag before audio starts. The external midi slowly comes into sync after 10seconds, while 10seconds after that the midi drifts back out of sync. It causes my music to sound like a Steve Reich piece. It's still out of sync even if I play 10 seconds or so before the midi regions start.

I'm using Logic 9.1.7 (just updated to this, although it was happening with my previous update) on a 2.4, 4gig Macbook pro, with plenty of free space on the hard-drive. I've also repaired the disk permission.

I've ruled out the midi interface as the problem, as it is happening with both my Edirol UM-2 and my NI Audio Kontrol.

I've ruled out the synth/sampler as the problem, as it is happening with both my TX81z and my EPS 16+.

I've ruled out USB hubs as a problem.

It's gotta be the DAW, as external midi syncs perfectly in Ableton live.

I feel that I've tried most of the multitude of midi and midi sync options in Logic.

This is really weird. Midi used to sync fine last year when I was using a Juno 106.

Any help would be much appreciated

cheers,

-Simon

Also don't use the external midi plug-in, it doesn't properly delay compensate. I'd monitor with an aux instead

[Document Swell]

So I've finally found the problem after using a different audio interface. It was my Audio Kontrol 1 interface causing the problem. Here is a thread with the same problem: viewtopic.php?p=335040 and a link detailing the issue http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... p?t=131456

[EricBradley]

Thanks for reporting back.