DAW Sound Engine Comparison

Hey Guys,

Does anyone think theres any differences between the audio engine of Logic compared to cubase or pro tools?

You hear people say that pro tools has 'a sound' but surely the only differences must be the plugins as far as sound?

can anyone here make comparisons between these?

MC

Yes, there is a difference in the audio engines and their summing algorithms, even if you don't use plug-ins.

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=6632

Oops, the link is dead... maybe someone will fish it out? EDIT: Thanks Eric for fishing it out. The new link is:

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=181402

although i havent read any articles on this; it seems reasonable to imagine there is a slight sonic difference in the engines of all daw's

but given the amount of variables from mics to pres to converters to monitors i wouldnt call it a reason to favor pt or logic.

my two cents anyway.

uhm, on a local forum, one guy performed a test (i think it was approx. 4 .. or 8 tracks) on Nuendo4 & LP8.

the files cancelled out completely. :S

thats interesting, thanks guys. Has anyone here directly compared logic to another d.a.w, perhaps using same outboard gear?

MC

Oh, and why do you consistently read about P.T's being best for audio recording, and logic better for midi? ive no doubt Logic is better for midi, however why not recording audio also??

MC

thats interesting, thanks guys. Has anyone here directly compared logic to another d.a.w, perhaps using same outboard gear?

Sure, many times. Once upon a time, Pro Tools TDM mix engines had a definite "signature sound" that many people didn't like. Not that it mattered as most folks still mixed on their console anyway. The newer HD systems don't suffer from this however.

Oh, and why do you consistently read about P.T's being best for audio recording, and logic better for midi? ive no doubt Logic is better for midi, however why not recording audio also??

This has everything to do with features and nothing to do with audio quality. All DAW software captures the same data.

Try to keep in mind that Pro Tools has spent its life catering features to folks who do session recording and audio post. Logic has always been a tool for composers, and more recently sound designers and producers.

In practical terms, this means you should pick the right tool for the job, if you can afford it. If not, get by with what you have and feel lucky you can do it at all.

Oh, and why do you consistently read about P.T's being best for audio recording, and logic better for midi? ive no doubt Logic is better for midi, however why not recording audio also??

 

MC

This comment is more about functional considerations than sound. PT has recording and editing features (playlists, overlapping groups, Audio Suite, BD and other macros) that make it desirable for working on audio.

IME the quality and sound of A/D/A conversion has much more of an impact on the final result than the sonics of the mix engine. As fader8 says, they're all pretty good these days anyways. It's like the difference between different brands of tape...

Here is my take on this. Although there is indeed a difference in summing algos, it is tiny compared to other factors such as hardware, plug-ins, pan laws, etc..

If you were to bring i.e. 24 audio tracks into any DAW like Logic, PT, DP, Cubase,etc., all using the same hardware, set them all to unity gain, no panning, and set the 2 buss to -6 dB and bounce, then burn the bounces on a CD, you would be very hard-pressed to hear any significant difference.

It is the least important reason to choose a DAW.

thanks guys, that certainly makes sense.

I do seem to be having much more sibilance in my vocal recordings than when I used cubase sx3 before (I prefer logic's work flow by far) but never the less, I am at a loss since its the same interface and mic, just different d.a.w.

Ashermusic-the comment about importing the same tracks into different d.a.w's and hearing minimal difference-does this apply to actually recording audio into them too-with the identical hardware set up?

MC

importing same tracks at the same sample rate in different daws has no impact.

the thing that had impact on your recording is different acoustics and probably preamp settings

cheers

pt is best for audio mixing because of the [gloomyghostvoice=on] 48 bit internal processing [gloomyghostvoice=off]

but that shouldn affect your sibilances not a bit.

be sure that you have the same samplerate and bit depth, because digital audio is prone to crappy hifreq response

It's been said before, but I think it's important to say it again: a DAW has strictly ZERO influence on the audio it records. When recording audio, a DAW takes the stream of zeros and ones coming from the audio interface and puts them in an audio file. That's it! So 00101 is going to be 00101 whether you use Cubase, Fruity Loops, PTLE, PT TDM, Logic or whatever else you wish.

Where DAWs differ is in summing. When you start mixing different audio files into one stereo audio output (or file), then the DAW has to make calculations using an audio engine. Different audio engines use different ways to calculate the summing, and yield different results - which is why you get a different sound.

So 00101 is going to be 00101 whether you use Cubase, Fruity Loops, PTLE, PT TDM, Logic or whatever else you wish.

Except of course the 00101 sounds better in Logic Pro than PoorTools LE because with the latter you're a slave to the Digi 003. And the Digi 003 records 00101 as 00001 instead because it has inferior A/D compared to the choices available for Logic Pro.

Sorry, but I can't help myself.

And summing 32 files in Logic Pro, Cubase and ProTools HD sounds 99,99% identical, despite two having 32 bit float and the other having 48 bit fixed.

I argue that many other factors determine the final result and that this discussion is over. Now. The End.

It's been said before, but I think it's important to say it again: a DAW has strictly ZERO influence on the audio it records. When recording audio, a DAW takes the stream of zeros and ones coming from the audio interface and puts them in an audio file. That's it! So 00101 is going to be 00101 whether you use Cubase, Fruity Loops, PTLE, PT TDM, Logic or whatever else you wish.

 

Where DAWs differ is in summing. When you start mixing different audio files into one stereo audio output (or file), then the DAW has to make calculations using an audio engine. Different audio engines use different ways to calculate the summing, and yield different results - which is why you get a different sound.

Re: paragraph 1, absolutely correct.

Re: paragraph 2, yes, but even this difference is minimal compared to other factors.

The bottom line is that one should not buy a DAW based on someone's claim that "it just sounds better."

they make plugins to color the sound DAWs are imo trying to be as clean as possible in order to provide maximum flexibility.

it would be dumb to color with daw

I think the average IQ on this forum is about 40% higher than Gearslutz, which the informed answers in this thread shows.

We need some more morons here to stir the pot.

That's it! Now we have to write a plug-in. The latest thing for your master bus! A bunch of radio buttons allowing you to select what host DAW you want your mix to sound like.

It could have a little picture of the retail box appear for each product when its selected. Just like the mic and cabinet emulators.

It actually wouldn't do anything at all, but that's a feature, right? 100% Transparency!

Heck, we could advertise 0 latency too!

I bet it would sell!

its actually not a bad idea.

then sell it on gearslutz

What a great idea! A DAW modeling plug-in.

It could actually be useful too! When your client sees your mixing in Logic . . .

Client: "Oh, I've heard Pro Tools HD sounds better".

You: "Hey, no problem. Got a plug-in for that".

Client: "Ah, that's better".

Maybe Funk Logic could come up with this? They already make great hardware, like this stuff:

http://www.mercenary.com/funlog3pipal.html

thanks guys, thats made allot of sense.

So basically sound engines are pretty much the same in all d.a.w's.

what about programs like nuendo that seem to be used allot in places Nashville, for its sound quality- is it unlikely it would sound better than say logic, with identicle recording conditions and no plugins, based on it sound engine?

MC

thats complete bullshit

as i said, on a local forum a guy recorded parallelly into logic 8 and nuendo4.

he then aligned the files in one daw, phase reversed one, and walla, complete silence.

so dont buy that s#!+.

i mean, the appearence of DAW has a bigger role in your production than sound quality (if we are talking about quality apps ofcourse)

I think the average IQ on this forum is about 40% higher than Gearslutz, which the informed answers in this thread shows.

 

We need some more morons here to stir the pot.

What the hell is a DAW?

I think the average IQ on this forum is about 40% higher than Gearslutz, which the informed answers in this thread shows.

 

We need some more morons here to stir the pot.

 

What the hell is a DAW?

digital audio wizard, comes with windows for setting up microphones for online gaming

sound engines are pretty much the same in all d.a.w's.

They certainly aren't, but as has been said before, the difference between DAW sound engines might not be the most important parameter for your sound (compared to the instrument you record, the room, the mic, the mic preamp, the way you mix, etc).

Ploki, If the guy recorded only one channel, and didn't mix different tracks, then he did not use the DAWs sound engines at all (just to play back a file). So that only proves what I said about DAWs being equal when recording, but not when mixing.

my bad, that was the first test.

he then mixed 4 tracks all at 0.0dB and same panorama and the result also cancelled out

so i guess it depends again if you have more than i dont know.. 8 or 10 number of channels?

at that point many are using hardware summers (which is stupid unless you are sending your cd to mastering via tape

my bad, that was the first test.

he then mixed 4 tracks all at 0.0dB and same panorama and the result also cancelled out

I have trouble believing that. Anyway it would only prove that Nuendo and Logic have the same summing algorithm (which would be quite surprising). PT and Logic have different algos for sure since they don't even use the same format (48 bit fixed vs 32 bit floating). But even PTLE and Logic, which both use 32 bit float, have different summing algos and sound different.