For the Experts - Snapshot of automation in the mixer?

Hi,

I've asked before, I'll admit it, but....

 

My working style is to create sections of music linearly, then put them together. The ideal thing is to be able to snapshot a mix in cycle record like this: I set a cycle for my song section, tweak the mix (levels, pans, plug-in settings, mutes, and bypasses, etc...) then (in the old Logic - up to 6.0) you could use the "send mixer settings to automation" function and create a whole mess o' automation.

 

Since that function has been removed, I have to either work with multiple documents, submixes, etc... a real PITA.

 

I know that I do have the environment fader bang command, but I think that needs to be configured per fader item (one for volume, one for pan, etc...)

 

Any other ways to do this? I need this function in my workflow!!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John

This can be accomplished, but it's not 100% straightforward. However, one thing that would make it infinitely easier is if you work from a template where you have enough audio channels, instruments, auxes, etc. already in place that you don't have to create them on-the-fly. Do you have have such a template (or can you work with one like that)?

Hi,

Doing more searching (that I probably should have done before posting ) and I'm seeing a lot of good banter on this subject by.... Ski!, Shivermetimbers, David, and Fader8 - the dream team!

 

In looking at all the discussion, a lot of it was about alternate mix automation, comparison A/B systems, and MIDI controllers, but touched on snapshots. Sprinkled in there were my little popping in to say "it was part of Logic 5"... my contribution.

 

I'm thinking that the solution is going to be in moving all the automation to region based, then cutting that. But the question remains: "in the absence of a node, is there a "thing" that is the position of a control or fader?"

 

Proposed: Set up a cycle, dial up a mix, in the arrange window - select all and choose "automation to region", then cut that region by locators, move to a new section, repeat.

 

I am only imagining this, I'm at work and can't try it. Oh, should I be working?

Yes, you should be working!

(then again, so should I )

 

And after answering your post I got a sense of deja vu, and after doing some searching of my hard drive, sure enough I found my snapshot automation prototype project. I tested it out and it works like a charm so far and (are you sitting down?) doesn't require automation at all to work!

 

That's right, ol' Ski is gonna leave you guessing as to how it works for now. More details at some other time. Gotta run, mo' layda.

OK, now I really have to get back to work! Now... er, um, sorry to be a party-pooper, but after reviewing the programming of my prototype snapshot system it's just not the kind of thing I can justify posting for free. Even though the programming is modular and streamlined, it's nevertheless complicated and tedious to program. In order to make it work 100% perfectly and provide total recall for volume, pan, mute, solo, and sends, plus instructions, it's going to take some time, and just isn't something I can give away. Sorry...

Don't really know how to respond to your comment.... uh, ok.

 

Anyway, I'm thinking of two ideas - I'll be doing some experiments with track-based to region based jumping (we'll see how much of the track stuff makes it to region!

 

Or

 

What about open a mixer, select all, automation to latch, then move a fader up and back down a micro-amount - or some variation on this?

 

I'll get back to you.

 

John

Don't really know how to respond to your comment.... uh, ok.

The secret key is the Environment... You can not imagine what is possible doing massive snapshots which respond to single CC, Program or even note key messages.

 

Regards,

Ivan

Done with the environment? Really? I thought it could be accomplished with some kind of Rasputin-like gaze, a wink, and a nod...

 

How about putting a bit of the "help" in the LogicProHelp forum, y'all? This mystery stuff is a..... mystery.

 

I understand Ski's comment about needing to be compensated for a complex project he would undertake... and of course the tech support, follow through, and accountability that comes with selling something (yes, even an environment template).

 

That said, Ski, what is the basic concept that you are thinking about? Surely that isn't something that you won't share? I'm not a total environment badass, but I've got a good 8-10 layers that I've built over the years, Lexicon LXP programmers, a bunch of stuff with my Nord modular, etc...and I've got a project going on right now with a touchscreen that I'll be talking about when it works well (XY faders, etc..)

 

I had thought that I would look at the bang command, but I haven't worked with it. Can you at least give us a hint?

 

Thanks,

 

John

Hi Toysun,

 

Thanks for your understanding. I'm happy to give some hints!

 

First of all, you're 'bang on' with respect to using the bang! fader function. Try this:

 

Create a bang! fader thingee and cable its output to an audio channel. On the output of the channel itself, connect a montior. Enable at least two sends. Now, hit the bang! button. In the monitor you're going to see:

 

CC #7 - volume setting

CC#10 - pan setting

Fader 3 - solo setting

Fader 9 - mute setting

Fader 28 - setting of send 1

Fader 29 - setting of send 2

 

So as you can see (and probably as you already know) it's entirely possible to get a channel to 'dump' the current state of its various parameters. The next step is to memorize this data. The final step is to be able to recall it.

 

In my scheme I use Transformers as memory, or RAM if you will. In the screenshot you'll see a bunch of them on the right. They're each labeled for the type of event they store, and, for the channel number. So you can see that a lot of Transformers are needed to store the data for just four channels! And in my prototype I'm only accommodating one send at the moment. However, each Transformer can store up to 128 values (hence the possibility of 128 snapshot memories), so there's a bit of a saving there in terms of components.

 

The way mine works is to send out a bang! command to each fader sequentially. This is done using a minimum of components via a technique called multiplexing. How I accomplish this would require a really lengthy explanation, so I'll skip it for now. The data dumped from each fader is filtered in terms of the type of message (volume, send, pan, etc.) and stored in its respective Transformer. That's the "Store" or "Write" operation.

 

For the "Read" or "Recall" operation, I do the opposite: I read the data sequentially from the Transformers (according to the preset number I select) and, using the same multiplexing function, get it back into all of the channels.

 

Just realized -- it's 5 AM. Gotta hit the hay!

Wow, this environment looks scary ! Does this will work for say 30-40 channel strips - I need massive mixer snapshots for my projects too ? One more question - how many snapshots does this environment template support, cause I need at least 25-30 to change my scenes ?

Hi Raptor,

 

What you're seeing there is a prototype, meaning that it's still a work in progress (though at the moment it works just fine). It's possilble to make a lot of that stuff hidden, so all the scary stuff is out of sight.

 

What you see there is only for four audio channels with 1 send. To expand the system so that it could accommodate 30 - 40 channels with multiple sends, auxes, instruments, and other stuff would take considerable time.

8) Edited August 23, 2009 by shivermetimbers

Just to confirm, in your system the additional faders 'n' stuff are the memory?

Just to confirm, in your system the additional faders 'n' stuff are the memory?

 

Yes.

 

It does get more involved, but this demonstrates the idea of the Bang 2nd Fader.

 

By turning on /off a few routing switches, the user could store many snapshots of the channel strip(s).

8) Edited August 23, 2009 by shivermetimbers

Almost forgot...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

<----- This

By Jove, I've think I've got it!

 

The concept is to bang the snapshot 1 data into fader 1, take it offline (storing the data in fader 1), bang the snapshot 2 data into fader 2, take it offline (storing the data in fader 2), etc.....

 

Guys, this is a very cool intellectual exercise, and I actually see how it works with the cable switchers acting as on/off switches, etc...

 

But hey, let's turn this into a rant thread, shall we? This is an incredible amount of work around to get back functionality that was removed from the program. Sheeeeesh! The problem with this environment-based system is that it's not very flexible. It has to be configured ahead of time, it doesn't grow easily, and if you add one more send or channel strip, it's a bear to add more to it.

 

Getting back to the goal of full mixer snapshots, has anyone thought about copying/cutting/extracting the information from the hidden automation lanes - or does that whole paradigm still exist?

 

Basically, choosing between a long haul in the environment vs breaking my song into separate Logic documents, mixing them down and assembling the stereo mixes, I'm going to have to stay with option 2. I've got music on my mind, not computers....

 

But I repeat, as an Intellectual exercise, very cool.

 

Now back to Flash programming for my day job (also a total hack thing today )

 

John

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1939683_1207882394100290634243a3809433478.jpg Edited August 23, 2009 by shivermetimbers

I see, you want a working copy of a template, eh?

 

Not really. It's those voices in your head again... So no, no one really wants to see your template.

Oh, and I forgot to add...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<---- this

http://www.citizen-journal.net/mt-weblog/archives/20060518yosemite%20sam.jpg

 

 

 

 

<<<<<------ PRESS PLAY

 

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/375759763_37c4d436dc.jpg

 

 

 

 

This is too easy...

 

Each 'Scene' is a snapshot of the Mixer.

 

Keep the Scene selectors OFF and do all your adjustments.

 

Select a scene to Store to and click the STORE button, then click the scene button Off.

 

Make other changes for comparison and store that to another scene.

 

To Recall scenes, select the scene you want and turn it on, then click the Recall button. Turn off the Scene button.

Edited August 23, 2009 by shivermetimbers

I don't have much time to reply to you, so I'll just do it in order of the things you presented...

 

1) picture of Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam getting ready to duel: LOL!

 

2) cartoon of Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam: LOL!

 

3) a^2b^2=c^2

x = 5

 

4) screenshot of Logic snapshot environment which, behind that macro, is probably a bloody f**** mess:

 

!!!!!!!!!ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!

 

Oh, you're killin' me... Stop! PLEASE, stop!

 

(yes, as in "laughing at you, not with you")

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, ya gonna share or WHAT?

 

( extra to indicate that the above was [chuckle] in jest [snicker, snort] )

 

4) screenshot of Logic snapshot environment which, behind that macro, is probably a bloody f**** mess:

 

 

No, not really. It's very basic and OPT + drag (and cable connects) makes adding more channels strips a snap.

 

 

So, ya gonna share or WHAT?

 

 

http://www.chinahighlights.com/image/aboutus/member/paypal-big.jpg

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

Here ... see... told ya... 8)

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gif

Ah, a real laffing boy, aren't ya?

 

Hey, laffing boy...!!!

 

(hopefully as a WB cartoon aficionado you'll know from whence that comes)

 

And yes, just as I suspected, it's a bloody mess. OK, OK, I admit it. It's a neat mess, but still, a mess. Yeah, good luck 'snappily' adding additional memories to that. Unpacking and repacking macros, re-cabling stuff... But when it's all put together it's very neat a tidy. Very neat and tidy indeed...

 

:roll:

 

OK, seriously and ALL kidding aside, what you've got there's looking good. I do think it would be a bit of a grind to unpack/repack the macro every time you add a new memory, but perhaps if created a fair number of memories in advance then it might save you some trouble down the road in terms of modifying it to add more.

 

My approach was to minimize the number of components by using a multiplexing approach, but hey, whatever, right? Yours seems like it will do the job quite nicely, so again, all kidding aside, CONGRATS!!

 

 

Now..... you gonna share or what?

Aw, see? I be nice to ya and everything and you go " " at me?

Gowon, hurt my feelings now, why dontcha?