Does L8 "sound" better?

Is it me or to my tired old ears L8 sounds a bit crisper? The reverbs seem more accurate, there is more definition, better localization of the sounds in the stereo field.

What I'm hearing out of my monitors (Event Studio 8's) is decisively different than what I heard 2 days ago in L7.

Anyone else have any opinions or should I check myself in a mental institution?

Logic 8 does sound better. No question about it.

In fact the word on the street is that Logic 8's new audio engine is similar to Pro Tools in that it works it's mojo on the audio file prior to hitting the A/D converters. I'm sure David will back me up here.

I think it sounds better also. The songs I did in Logic 7, when loaded into Logic 8 do sound better.

I also have been impressed with the improved factory effect strips. Much better.

Bluespro

To test if they sound different, open a file in LP7 and bounce the song.

Open the same song in LP8 and bounce that.

Then drag both bounces into a new project and flip the phase on one of them. If they cancel out, you should be hearing the same thing. If not, please tell/show us the difference.

X

that's too much work

L8 sounds better because we WANT it to

midphase, how do you like those studio 8's?

I have the same monitors and I love them, but they are the only things I've ever used, do I don't have a point of reference. they seem good to me though, my mixes sound better when I put them in the stereo. I think because the events don't really hype much. which seems to be good. but i am always telling people, just wait until you hear them in your own stereo it'll sound good, I promise. anyway, never knew anyone else that used these guys.

Studio 8's are great. I used to use the Mackie HR824's and I thought they were very impressive....but since switching to the Event's I realize there's no comparison. The Studio 8's have much better imaging and higher level of detail, I can hear things in them that I could never hear in the HR's.

Having said that, I'm sure that Genelec and Dynaudio make even more superior monitors...but for my buck, the Events give me an excellent bang!

. If they cancel out, you should be hearing the same thing. If not, please tell/show us the difference.

Now X, you should know that this doesn't take into account any psychoelectroacoustic, hyperexistential metaphenomenology. How dare you pose such an affront to our predetermination with such absurdist methodology.

L8 sounds better because we WANT it to

Ha ha ha ha ha...

Well, I might do the test...

Now X, you should know that this doesn't take into account any psychoelectroacoustic, hyperexistential metaphenomenology. How dare you pose such an affront to our predetermination with such absurdist methodology.

I'm sowwy.

*sob

X

When I opened up a session done in LP7 in LP8 I noticed a difference in the sound right off the bat.

I was actually taken back by it.

My initial assumption is that the compressor plug in has been upgraded since it was the dynamics that sounded different to me.

Placebo or not, things sound different in my ears in L8.

Ok, here's the thing: I've yet to hear anyone make the following distinction.

Apple has already announced that the compressor has been improved, and we also know that the reverbs have been improved as well. BUT--If you strip away the improved compressor and ambiances, do you really still hear an improvement? In other words, has the audio engine really been improved to an audible extent, or is it really only these processors that have been improved, giving only the false perception of an improved audio engine?

If you record audio of the Ivory plugin in both Logic 7 & 8, with no processing whatsoever, will there be a perceptible difference between the two?

If you have this option in the Bounce dialog checked it should sound better.

From the Apple Knowledge base (the manual is wwong.)

"Logic Pro/Express 8: Discussion of the Normalize feature in the Bounce dialog

Logic 8 offers a new Normalize check box in the Bounce dialog window. When it's selected, Logic calculates the maximum possible volume for the bounce without exceeding 0 dBFS, and writes a resulting audio file with the optimum level for whatever format you are bouncing to. There are several points to keep in mind with this feature:

The full dynamic range is always maintained. There is no compression, limiting or distortion involved.

The normalized bounce file is calculated with 32-bit floating point math, and then mapped to your selected final destination file format (such as 24-bit WAVE, 16-bit AIFF, AAC, etc.). This ensures maximum fidelity and resolution, unlike many other normalization algorithms that perform their operations using fixed point math that may result in distortion and audio degradation.

If your peak levels are right at 0 dBFS, then the Normalize function will have no effect. If your peak output levels are in excess of 0 dBFS, they will be brought down to 0 dBFS. This is a great safety feature that can prevent clipping in mixes where you have inadvertently left the peak output levels a bit too high. However, it is still good practice to avoid setting levels so that your outputs exceed 0 dB, because you may hear clipping in your monitored signal as you mix."

Jay,

Can you think of any downside to this feature whatsoever?

Jay,

 

Can you think of any downside to this feature whatsoever?

People will become careless and dependent on it....

X

If you have this option in the Bounce dialog checked it should sound better.

 

From the Apple Knowledge base (the manual is wwong.)

 

"Logic Pro/Express 8: Discussion of the Normalize feature in the Bounce dialog

Logic 8 offers a new Normalize check box in the Bounce dialog window. When it's selected, Logic calculates the maximum possible volume for the bounce without exceeding 0 dBFS, and writes a resulting audio file with the optimum level for whatever format you are bouncing to. There are several points to keep in mind with this feature:

 

The full dynamic range is always maintained. There is no compression, limiting or distortion involved.

 

The normalized bounce file is calculated with 32-bit floating point math, and then mapped to your selected final destination file format (such as 24-bit WAVE, 16-bit AIFF, AAC, etc.). This ensures maximum fidelity and resolution, unlike many other normalization algorithms that perform their operations using fixed point math that may result in distortion and audio degradation.

 

If your peak levels are right at 0 dBFS, then the Normalize function will have no effect. If your peak output levels are in excess of 0 dBFS, they will be brought down to 0 dBFS. This is a great safety feature that can prevent clipping in mixes where you have inadvertently left the peak output levels a bit too high. However, it is still good practice to avoid setting levels so that your outputs exceed 0 dB, because you may hear clipping in your monitored signal as you mix."

I've been recording at lower levels, due to using the "pre-fader levels" setting.

Trying to work this way to see if it changes my overall sound (as discussed many places).

This shows "red" if your files are hot to begin with and then you add any processing that add something (like EQ settings).

So wouldn't this new normalizing put all your files too close to the ceiling for this type of situation?

PS.. I already know what David will say here.

OK we just installed Logic 8 at a studio I work at. There was a client in who hadn't heard a session since it was last open on LP7, The client, a rapper, had no idea about the update or possible different audio engines and straight away went, "Wow! That sounds better, what did you do to the track?"

I and the other producers would be biased because we knew about the possible new audio engine (whether it exists or not), but this guy noticed a difference straight off the bat without even knowing about an update.

Whether there is a new engine or better sounding plug-ins, it sounds better to musicians, which can't be a bad thing.

It seems clear that some work had been done at the very least so that Logic can have Surround Sound throughput top to bottom.

It would seem that while developing this it would theoretically be possible for them to take the advantage to make further revisions to the audio engines. It may have in fact been necessary to pull off their multichannel engine design.

But that is just educated speculation, without any information to back it up.

But another thing is clear, it certainly wont be any worse.

So when my update finally arrives in the I will be putting this matter to the test my self quite scrupulously. I EXPECT to find that Logic 8 will sound EXACTLY like Logic 7, based on straight, unprocessed tests.... Identical.

So if anything DOES sound different, there will be a greater likelihood that there would have been improvements.

By approaching it with a sceptical mindset it should make any improvements obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I HOPE apple took the time to refine it... But i don't EXPECT it!!... I do however EXPECT it will sound exactly like 7.

Agreed; but it would help if we knew exactly what has been improved so we can take further advantage.

The audio engine was completely rebuilt. What other details beyond that could be helpful?

(Not trying to be a jerk, just generally curious...)

To test if they sound different, open a file in LP7 and bounce the song.

 

Open the same song in LP8 and bounce that.

 

Then drag both bounces into a new project and flip the phase on one of them. If they cancel out, you should be hearing the same thing. If not, please tell/show us the difference.

 

X

Okay, I did a null test... and they don't null. The engine itself has changed, not just the compressor, etc. Pan law taken into account of course.

Regarding the normalize feature in the bounce dialog:

While this takes place in 32 bit float unlike the regular normalize which is truncated at the original file depth (24 bit 16) it is NOT a good idea to use the feature generally speaking.

Almost all mastering engineers (myself included) prefer a 24 bit mix peaking at -6 dBFS to -3 dBFS.

There is nothiing to be gained from normalizing here - quite the opposite. Peaking closer to 0 dBFS will usually result in having to digitally attenuate the whole signal while equalizing - even when cutting as the phase may change.

So normalizing will only result in adding an extra step of unnecessary processing in mastering.

Bouncing your mixdown for mastering at -3 dBFS to -6 dBFS will have no effect on the final loudness of the final after mastering. None. But it will likely sound slightly better if you didn't normalize.

Disregarding the fact that most commerical masters today are extremely hot, another reason not to bounce your mix normalized is that going over -0.3 dBFS will sound worse when converting to MP3. Also sustained levels near 0 dBFS can actually result in +0dBFS signals (especially if clipping occurs in the mix) when played through even standard quality CD D/As.

Agreed; but it would help if we knew exactly what has been improved so we can take further advantage.

 

The audio engine was completely rebuilt.

Instantpop, You state this as fact, when that's precisely what's in doubt. Nowhere has it been stated that anything has been done to the audio engine whatsoever. Apple may have in fact done so, but has NOT said so; hence this discussion.

So when my update finally arrives in the I will be putting this matter to the test my self quite scrupulously. I EXPECT to find that Logic 8 will sound EXACTLY like Logic 7, based on straight, unprocessed tests.... Identical. Don't get me wrong, I HOPE apple took the time to refine it...

Simon, I agree wholeheartedly, and look forward to hearing the results of your tests.