Clipping while recording - no more warning in L8?

Oooooh, you know what? I've noticed that too. And, being a big fool, I ALWAYS overcook my levels (actually, I blame the Saffire - the colour scheme on its levels? Impossible to read!!)

I'd love to see that clip warning back though...

I'd love to see that clip warning back though...

Me too. I found it to be quite handy. Depending on the material, I didn't always care if I clipped once or twice or not, but it was nice to know that I did without having to search. Heck even Cubase would at least leave the clip indicator light on for me.

Never having used Logic 7, I know nothing about its clip warnings. When you overload a track in Logic 8's Mixer, however, its level meter goes red and displays the magnitude by which the signal must be reduced to avoid clipping. That display stands out from the rest of the Mixer's colors and persists until you re-start the track.

Yes but this doesn't work while tracking - the clip indicator never turns red.

Can't speak about a pop-up warning, so I don't know if it'd matter to me or not. I'm pretty good about watching my levels, though.

When a signal's too hot Logic 8's clip detectors go red during recording or playback, at least on my setup. Don't know why it wouldn't be the same on anyone else's.

Lol!

If you knew how many emails and comments I have received over the years saying, "I wish Apple would take out that @#$%^*@ clip message! I can see when my audio is in the red."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Don't know what to tell you. I wasn't 100% about it before my last post, so I setup a mic, created an audio track, armed it, recorded it, and watched as I gradually overloaded it. The level meter showed yellow, then red, and the clip detector went red at the same time. It makes no sense that it wouldn't exhibit the same behavior on your setup, unless you're using a limiter or compressor to attenuate the signal when it gets hot.

As for not being able to monitor multiple tracks for clipping, if that's the case then what purpose would the missing pop-up clip warning serve that Logic 8's clip detectors don't also serve? If you're setting levels, they both tell you your signal is too hot, correct? If you're recording, don't they both tell you your signal has been clipped? And if you find out your signal is clipped after the fact, how would the pop-up warning change your workflow? You'd still have to go back and re-record it.

Maybe I don't understand what this Logic 7 pop-up warning does.

The purpose of the warning, whether a window or a clip indicator light, is to alert me that incoming audio has clipped, and I need to go listen to it to determine if I need to re-record it. Sometimes I'll leave it, sometimes I won't. If I don't see that warning, I assume that nothing has clipped and I have nothing to worry about. For those who record themselves, it's kinda ridiculous to have to watch the meters as you try your best to belt out your best performance. For me it's downright impossible.

Let's forget the clip warning window for a second and focus on the clip indicator in the mixer - mine is NOT lighting up when I purposely clip incoming audio. Why? Your's is? Am I the only one? It's easy enough to test. Can anyone else please confirm?

My specs:

Logic 8

10.5.1

RME Fireface 800 (latest drivers)

My level meters and clip detectors definitely go red on overload. What's more, the clip detector stays red until it's cleared or the track is replayed. It would seem to serve the same purpose as Logic 7's pop-up, just in a less obvious way.

I routinely use this functionality, and so am curious about why it wouldn't operate on another system. If there's a user-input or preference that disables it, I want to know about that.

You can't exactly clip a digital recording, although your A/D can clip...

Think about it, the A/D can not produce any more than full sample (by definition) so Logic is never going to see any more than that. The flag that used to appear after a pass was a clever way of assessing how many full samples had been recorded in a row (remember it used to say '...5 contiguous samples') and logically (no pun intended) assuming that the A/D had been clipped as a result.

I guess the workaround is to read the little number above the bar meter in Logic. If it says 0, you've probably clipped your recording...

Hey, I gotta ask...

What are you guys doing recording stuff that hot anyways? That's a big risk on a digital system. Them ain't VU meters.

On my rig:

-16dBfs = 0VU = +4dB

so:

0dBfs = +16VU = +20dB

You guys are maniacs, LOL! Not even the worst tape-slammers get away with that.

Nobody records stuff that hot. At least not twice. The point is to know how much headroom you've got, and when you're using it unnecessarily.

The "little meter" above the level is the track's clip detector. If it says "0", you may have clipped, but not necessarily. You've gotta listen to know. During recording the clip detector never exceeds "0". On playback, it can, and in that case it tells you by how much the signal has to be reduced to avoid clipping. A track that is otherwise OK, but gives you a brief 0+ reading will not necessarily cause clipping in your final output; it depends on the nature of the signal, and whether it's reinforced by other concurrent ones.

OTOH, if you get a red clip indicator on the output track, you've got a clip that requires some remedial action.

My level meters and clip detectors definitely go red on overload. What's more, the clip detector stays red until it's cleared or the track is replayed.

You are testing this while tracking, correct? I just went and tried it again - my clip indicator never, ever lights up during tracking.

Lucky bastard.

Hopefully someone else will chime in here to see if your just lucky or I'm totally screwed. Can you list your specs, please?

"Bastard?" Well, I suppose it depends who you talk to...

Just so you know I'm not living up to the description, a brief video of a recording being clipped is attached - if the board's filters let it through.

My specs are:

Mac Pro dual quad 3.0, 3TB SATA2, 16GB RAM, M-Audio FW410 interface, 10.4.11

Clip.zip

Thanks for the video, Homina. I'm jealous. I'm definitely not seeing that behavior, and would love to get to the bottom of this.

FWIW I fired up Cubase 4 to make sure it was still giving me the clip warning on the input channels, and it is. I know - totally irrelevant, but I was curious.

re: "bastard" - hey - hope you know I was just kidding!

On my rig:

 

-16dBfs = 0VU = +4dB

 

so:

 

0dBfs = +16VU = +20dB

 

You guys are maniacs, LOL! Not even the worst tape-slammers get away with that.

I thought (-)18dBFS was the generally accepted norm for calibration?

(the minus is not actually needed with the letters following, as they proclaim the significance of the number and the relation)

I find it is easy to mistakenly slam things. But, it is only when I use something with great variance. For example, just yesterday I was using my V-Synth GT, and when I went from one patch I made to another, things sounded ok with Input monitoring, but when I hit record, it was quite the horrible sound! Talk about overload...although Mr Reznor might have found use for it

I don't see why a message is needed. I always thought it was a very noticeable sound when digital clips; and as said, if your system is properly calibrated, it would take a serious mistake (such as mine yesterday-lol) to even come close to clipping.

if your system is properly calibrated, it would take a serious mistake (such as mine yesterday-lol) to even come close to clipping.

Not really - I could be recording drums and then accidentally hit a rather loud rim shot along with a crash cymbal and boom - I clip. Normally, clips of this nature are inaudible (to me at least), but I'd still like to know that it happened.

Bottom line: my clip indicator is NOT working during tracking. Is yours?

I thought (-)18dBFS was the generally accepted norm for calibration?

...

I don't see why a message is needed. I always thought it was a very noticeable sound when digital clips; and as said, if your system is properly calibrated, it would take a serious mistake (such as mine yesterday-lol) to even come close to clipping.

Apogee recommends -16 for the converters I use. I think the Digidesign stuff is -18, some people use -20. It all depends on how the gear is designed...

And I agree with Nikki. The whole reason for going 'hot' to tape was to improve the SNR for the noisefloor inherent in the medium (magnetic tape). With digital recording, the inherent noise floor is ridiculously low (how much noise does Logic make without signal?), and the dynamic range is ridiculously high, so why not track with peaks to -6dBfs instead of 0? Or -10 even? Save yourself the headaches.

if your system is properly calibrated, it would take a serious mistake (such as mine yesterday-lol) to even come close to clipping.

Not really - I could be recording drums and then accidentally hit a rather loud rim shot along with a crash cymbal and boom - I clip. Normally, clips of this nature are inaudible (to me at least), but I'd still like to know that it happened.

 

Bottom line: my clip indicator is NOT working during tracking. Is yours?

My metering is not reliant on Logic, therefore if I do not hear a clip, generally there isn't.

BTW- what you described? You even used the word "accidentally"

Like I said- properly calibrated, and it takes an accident to clip. And in 99% of those cases, it is noticeably audible.

I could see the warning in Garageband, but not Logic..or maybe I am over crediting the typical, knowledgeable user?

I thought (-)18dBFS was the generally accepted norm for calibration?

 

Apogee recommends -16 for the converters I use. I think the Digidesign stuff is -18, some people use -20. It all depends on how the gear is designed...

Gotcha.

I was thinking of monitoring system calibration for some reason...and maybe due to most of my gear calibrating 18dBFS on both sides maybe...

[And I agree with Nikki. The whole reason for going 'hot' to tape was to improve the SNR for the noisefloor inherent in the medium (magnetic tape). With digital recording, the inherent noise floor is ridiculously low (how much noise does Logic make without signal?), and the dynamic range is ridiculously high, so why not track with peaks to -6dBfs instead of 0? Or -10 even? Save yourself the headaches.

Thank you!

It amazes me how easily the "engineer" in "recording engineer" is dismissed so easily and quickly these days. Most will simply feel that since something is readily available, anyone can simply fire it up and be adept (they can..but ignorance out of laziness and "I want it now!" is just pathetic, and sad, IMO). I guess that is why we have full-size Hummers rolling around our streets driven by civilians for everyday use... maybe a nice Sherman adapted to wheels over treads next?

I appreciate you all responding, and the information you've given is very interesting, but this topic is really not about how hot to record to digital - it's about the peak indicator not working, and about Logic not giving me an visual indicator that a clip happened like every other DAW, including Logic 7. Agreed - it's an accident when it happens, but I'd like to know about it, because sometimes it will bother me - other times it will not.

I don't think I'm asking for much. Since this is working for at least one other person, I'd appreciate it if one or two other people would confirm this. Preferably somebody on Leopard (yes yes - I shouldn't have upgraded - sue me. )

nikkik - if I hadn't spent countless hours trying to get the best possible sound out of my system, I'd be offended by your last paragraph. But I know enough to not include myself in the group you defined.

Nobody ever suggested to set their levels to peak at 0. I just want my peak indicator to work while tracking. That is all.

For an interesting argument as to why you should record into digital with "maximum levels", I refer you to Mixing With Your Mind by Michael Paul Stavrou. It's a very expensive book, but it had me rethink how I set my levels going into Logic, and I have been very pleased with the results. (And - again - I very rarely clip, but I just want to know when I do).

nikkik - if I hadn't spent countless hours trying to get the best possible sound out of my system, I'd be offended by your last paragraph. But I know enough to not include myself in the group you defined.

Normally I would say sorry for offending anyone. In this case, I feel that those who fall on ignorance out of sheer laziness, when there are excellent books and teachers out there, should be the ones apologizing. PERIOD.

For an interesting argument as to why you should record into digital with "maximum levels", I refer you to Mixing With Your Mind by Michael Paul Stavrou. It's a very expensive book, but it had me rethink how I set my levels going into Logic, and I have been very pleased with the results. (And - again - I very rarely clip, but I just want to know when I do).

I am not even going to argue on that. It is senseless, and people will believe what they want. Intersample peaks would be one reason to watch it, but if you are using summing and any plug-ins or other processing, it is a very good idea to avoid recording at the hottest level possible. Ask any reputable gear engineer (key word: reputable), or do the homework and learn the digital realm's laws and concepts (not from an Ask article either...hit the books please)

As to the original question that has been strayed from.. while I do not get a dialog informing of an over (thankfully), I do see meter clipping/indication.