Mastering Question

Does logic 8 come with all the mastering tool kits necessary or should I invest in a separate Program ( Such as Ozone or Wave stuff) or piece of hardware.. I am not looking to try to attempt to fully master material, but to give it a good enough master so artist leaving my studio can at least play their songs back with good sound quality. Im just having a problem with getting my levels to sound the same as they do in my studio, Out of my studio.. Any suggestions....

Logic 8 comes with some great tools, such as AdLimiter and Multipressor which more than do the job if you're not after professional mastering equipment. There are also some free mastering plugins available that do a fine job for most people's requirements.

 

Check out kvraudio.com for a list of available plugins.

 

Seriously though, I imagine you'll find that AdLimiter and Multipressor (along with treats like Linear Phase EQ) will do the job perfectly well.

Hi

 

I myself am no mastering engineer by any stretch but I do find Logic's mastering plugs to be VERY good. Mostly I use Linear phase EQ, Multipressor, and the Adaptive Limiter amongst others but I'm finding that once I start to get into tweaking the parameters I can get a very polished sound. In terms of the loudness that is really where the Limiter comes in. I use the Limiter in conjunction with the Multipressor where the multipressor "tames" any frequencies in need of taming with the more limiting I use. For me this is especially true in the low end. I feel I can get more dbs out with the right multipressor settings. That said I don't really like to overdue any parameter during the mastering phase. I feel that if I need to do a really big change on one of the plugs I'd be better off doing it in the mix. I usually bounce my mix so that it is peaking between -6 and -3. I usually aim for a 0db peak in my masters but not really a brickwall limit. I would say just use your ears and try to get your songs peaking at 0 on your final master. ANY radio or CD player or MP3 player should play it back loud enough.

 

Hope this helps

 

Have a good one.

i think logic's plugs are better than ozone

From my limited use of L8 so far, I would agree with the statements above about Logic's own plug-ins. The limiter is great, but I'm still trying to get used to the multipressor. It seems very similar to the what I've been used to with Audition for a few years, but I can't seem to get the same results with it just yet...

 

 

I do have a question related to this... Chico, your post seems to indicate that you actually bounce your mixes down to stereo first, then bring them into a separate logic session to master?

 

Is there any preference with regard to mixing AND mastering the entire thing as one final bounce, or is it still better to allow Logic to burn a stereo mix first, then process a separate stereo WAV, etc. as a final master?

Great question Main... Saved me sum typing... But if anyone is willing to explain the mastering process I would really appreciate it. I am very new to this but I also learn very quickly.. A brief explanation on the mastering tools and their purposes would be great also.. Thanx

Great question Main... Saved me sum typing... But if anyone is willing to explain the mastering process I would really appreciate it. I am very new to this but I also learn very quickly.. A brief explanation on the mastering tools and their purposes would be great also.. Thanx

 

Here's a good start:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering

Thanks David,

 

I personally have a cursory knowledge of the mastering process, I just wonder specifically with Logic if it really matters which way you approach the use of the mastering-type plug-ins it has to offer. As in, is there a difference in what Logic would output depending on whether the effects on the master fader were applied and mixed down with the whole mix or if they were applied to a pre-mixed stereo WAV of the same thing. I will try it and see if I can hear a difference, I just wondered if anyone had a more informed opinion...

Edited January 25, 2008 by maninthedark30

This link helped me alot.... http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/OzoneMasteringGuide.PDF

Thanks much Dave.. I found this link through the one you provided..

is there a difference in what Logic would output depending on whether the effects on the master fader were applied and mixed down with the whole mix and if they were applied to a pre-mixed stereo WAV of the same thing

 

huh?

Alright, trying to be short and to the point with this one isn't working, so let me try again....

 

 

 

Let's say you have a song with however many tracks that you are about to mix down. If you were going to give it to a mastering engineer he would ask you to not apply any compression/limiting of your own so he could do his job properly and have the most flexibility, etc. etc. Therefore, you would send him a stereo WAV of your mix without any mastering-type effects applied, correct? He would also probably mention that it should peak anywhere from -6 to -2 (depending on the engineer) so as to leave some headroom for him to actually have something to work with.

 

Well...

 

In Logic, when you are MIXING, you can apply compression and limiting and etc. on the master fader channel strip all at the same time, BEFORE you even mix down to stereo.

 

So my question is, if you were to take a stab at mastering your own song, would it make a difference to burn your mix to a stereo WAV first, then bring it into Logic and master just a stereo WAV of your song (already 'burned' from Logic),

 

OR

 

just stick the compression/limiting and such in on the master fader at the 1st mixdown?

 

I guess what I wonder is if it would sound different on an already mixed stereo WAV of the song since the actual BOUNCE process (supposedly) imparts a certain subjective quality to the song, and by processing that WAV it would come out differently (possibly better?) than if all the individual track plug-ins AND the master fader plug-ins were all applied and/or processed during a single bounce.

 

To me it would be faster to do it all at once, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be mixing things down to stereo first and then bringing stereo WAVs into a new session for mastering (like a separate mastering engineer would).

 

That's all

So my question is, if you were to take a stab at mastering your own song, would it make a difference to burn your mix to a stereo WAV first, then bring it into Logic and master just a stereo WAV of your song (already 'burned' from Logic),

 

OR

 

just stick the compression/limiting and such in on the master fader at the 1st mixdown?

 

Short answer? No, there's no audible difference.

 

Long answer...

 

In theory you have more dynamic range (less noise) when putting the plug-ins on the Out 1-2 of the mix, vs when you first bounce to a 24 audio file, reimport that file in a new project and insert the plug-ins in the new project.

 

In practice, that difference is inaudible. How inaudible you ask? Let's make a little experience: Turn off any music in your studio and very slowly rub your index against your other index. Chances are, you don't hear much, if you have some computers with their fans on in the room, but you may hear something. That's your level of noise. Now imagine being next to me, strapped outside the cockpit of a 747 during take-off. The airplane noise is you level of sound. Now imagine I start slowly rubbing my index against my other index. Would you turn around and say "Wait, did you hear that?" - I didn't think so. That's how low the noise level is in a 24 bit audio file, compared to the signal level.

 

Conclusion? Personally I always mix in one project, master in another. This allows me to do all sorts of things I can't do while mastering inside the original project.

Thanks for the explanation

 

I suppose you might be talking about doing things like processing certain parts of the song differently, or having an easier time dealing with fades and such... things that would just be a pain trying to do while all the tracks are going at once I imagine.

 

So in that respect we probably have similar preferences. I will most likely stick to this approach, I just wondered if there was some left field thing about Logic or just recording in general that I might not be aware of concerning this particular issue. I'm always learning new stuff, so any tips or insights are greatly appreciated as always!

 

Cheers,

 

Stephen

Main, When you say your adding effects to your master track do you mean the output 1-2 channel strip.. Just wondering because My master tracks never have any insert slots or anything just a volume knob..

There is an output 1 and 2 channel strip just before the master strip ... that is your actual mixdown channel so you apply your mastering effects there. I am guessing that master channel strip is more of a control room volume or something.

 

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand... I have done it both ways in both Logic and Cubase. I tend to lean towards putting the effects on the output 1-2 as I mix the entire track, not just to save time but really there are times when some of the things change as you apply these mastering effects and you can still make adjustments to individual tracks... for instance you like the overall sound of the mix now that you have the limiter and multipressor applied but now the lead vocal track sticks out a little too much ... easy to make that adjustment if you are using this method and that is just one small example of things that I have come accross that make me prefer this method...

 

also i dont like the sound of my finger and thumb rubbing together when I'm trying to listen to a jet engine roaring beside my ears....

Hi All,

First post ... and its just to say the 747 example here cracked me up. A good question by the way !

Nice one

Trev

 

 

 

 

So my question is, if you were to take a stab at mastering your own song, would it make a difference to burn your mix to a stereo WAV first, then bring it into Logic and master just a stereo WAV of your song (already 'burned' from Logic),

 

OR

 

just stick the compression/limiting and such in on the master fader at the 1st mixdown?

 

Short answer? No, there's no audible difference.

 

Long answer...

 

In theory you have more dynamic range (less noise) when putting the plug-ins on the Out 1-2 of the mix, vs when you first bounce to a 24 audio file, reimport that file in a new project and insert the plug-ins in the new project.

 

In practice, that difference is inaudible. How inaudible you ask? Let's make a little experience: Turn off any music in your studio and very slowly rub your index against your other index. Chances are, you don't hear much, if you have some computers with their fans on in the room, but you may hear something. That's your level of noise. Now imagine being next to me, strapped outside the cockpit of a 747 during take-off. The airplane noise is you level of sound. Now imagine I start slowly rubbing my index against my other index. Would you turn around and say "Wait, did you hear that?" - I didn't think so. That's how low the noise level is in a 24 bit audio file, compared to the signal level.

 

Conclusion? Personally I always mix in one project, master in another. This allows me to do all sorts of things I can't do while mastering inside the original project.

Hi All

 

Sometimes I will even do stem mastering. I like this because it gives me more flexibility with my songs. Basically what I do is Bounce sub groups: Vocals,Guitars,Drums,Bass and Keys. Then I import them into my mastering session. From there I still have control over the volume of my submixes and can also add separate EQ's on the individual subgroup channels. It's kind of like mixing and mastering at the same time but I prefer to just have a MASTERING session. It helps to focus me more.

 

Have a good one.

Yes, I was referring to the output 1-2 fader, sorry

 

I agree with the idea about being able to change things in the mix after hearing some of the mastering effects applied. Good point!

 

Also, I am intrigued by the stem mastering idea, having heard of this before...

 

So you actually bounce the song 4-5 times, each producing a WAV of drums, guitars, vocals, etc. and then bring all those WAVs into a new session? Hmm..

 

 

By the way, thanks for all the input on this everyone.

I kind of agree with litesnsirens about how you might hear a vocal or something popping out too much if you have some mastering plugs set up pre mixdown. For that reason, I will stick some mastering plugs on the output just to check that out. But I still master separately, for a couple of reasons.

 

The main one is that once you've bounced the song, you have a better opportunity to give your ears some objectivity around the mix. I don't think that it's a great idea to go straight from the mix to mastering; your mind is too full of the details of the song and all the little bits that go into the mix to hear the song as a whole. Some people may be able to do that, I'm not one of them! When I'm working on a mix, I'll even go as far as to run off a mix just so I can play it without have Logic's GUI there to look at and remind me of all my brilliant little automations, etc. I can also run off slightly different mixes and compare them.

 

The other thing is that if you have more than one song in a project, you can load all those mixes into an editor or another logic session and quickly compare all the mixes. You might notice that the vocals that sounded so great in one song are brighter/duller than all the others. Or that some songs are too bassy. Or that some mixes seem more transparent.

 

I'm not a mastering engineer by any stretch but I will do it if the project doesn't have the budget for it (and I'll tell the client that they would get a better job by real M.E.) or if I'm mailing a quick mix to someone for them to see where the project's going and I want to make the volume reasonably loud. So it's just some very simple "mastering" in that case. And I'll do it on the un-bounced song for the same reason as litesnsirens. But when it's time for mixdown, I'll turn off all those mastering plugs.

Does anyone master in Waveburner or just in Logic?

Does anyone master in Waveburner or just in Logic?

 

The answer is in what you're mastering for. If you're mastering for film and TV then WB doesn't make much sense. If you want to burn a few of your own CD's, WB is great. I bought it back when it was a standalone Emagic product. I paid $300us I think. For bulk CD replication premastering, I use Sonic Studio.

This is a great thread and as I'll be studying mastering in the up-incoming semester at uni could someone please tell me the order of effects you would use when mastering? I noticed that the mastering channel strips have different orders sometimes.

I'm pretty scared of the whole "mastering is a black art" thing. I guess once you understand all the ins and outs of multiband compression and limiting then it all comes down to your ears and experience.

Cheers.

This is a great thread and as I'll be studying mastering in the up-incoming semester at uni could someone please tell me the order of effects you would use when mastering? I noticed that the mastering channel strips have different orders sometimes.

I'm pretty scared of the whole "mastering is a black art" thing. I guess once you understand all the ins and outs of multiband compression and limiting then it all comes down to your ears and experience.

Cheers.

 

Very true, about the 'ears and experience' thing IMO.

 

Often times I like to think there are no RULES when it comes to anything, ultimately, but many tried and true APPROACHES that one can take.

 

For starters, a common approach (working backwards here) is to stick a limiter at the end of the mastering chain, if your ears or the decibel meter says it needed. Compressors and EQ's are a bit more open to interpretation, but I personally tend to compress first (multiband or otherwise) then EQ, so as to tame the transients and such with a bit compression first, rather than kill the wrong frequencies with compression if they were EQ'd properly beforehand. Make sense? It's kinda late... Of course, all of this depends on the track and what is needed from song to song. When you're trying to do a whole project it becomes more about getting all the songs to sound like they go together with respect to EQ, apparent loudness (esp. the vocals from song to song), etc.

 

Oh, and like you mentioned, in Logic some of the mastering type channel strip settings on the output 1-2 master fader are set up different, but I think many of them follow this basic approach:

 

gain-phase scope-compression-EQ-limiter-spectrum analyzer

 

The multimeters are there I guess to help verify earlier on that the song doesn't have any major phase issues, and to monitor the final EQ and peak levels...

 

One last thing- it's always interesting to me to pull up an mp3 of a professionally recorded/mastered song and watch it through some of the meters. Kinda puts things in perspective a bit. And makes me want to turn off my computer for good and go be a monk

. . I'll be studying mastering in the up-incoming semester at uni . . .

I'm pretty scared of the whole "mastering is a black art" thing.

 

Good for you. If there's anything that can benefit from education, its mixing and mastering. Mastering isn't a black art, it's just a fastidious, persnickety, time-consuming craft that's very dependent on intimate working knowledge of the tools capabilities and limitations. If mastering for CD's, it's not just about knowing the processors, but understanding the whole process through CD premastering and maintaining quality throughout that chain.

 

Typical curriculum uses the Waves mastering plugs. Does your school have a hardware suite you can work with as well? Regarding your question about processing order, that's definitely something you will be covering in class. Quick explanations in a forum aren't going to do that subject justice. With this stuff, misinformation is your worst enemy.

 

Good luck!

Quick explanations in a forum aren't going to do that subject justice.

 

I agree enthusiastically with the above statement.

 

With this stuff, misinformation is your worst enemy.

 

 

And this one is just downright subtle!

 

 

With this stuff, misinformation is your worst enemy.

And this one is just downright subtle!

 

Ha ha! Sorry, not directed at you! Or even this thread for that matter.

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with relaying personal experiences when it comes to this stuff. My point really is that while mixing can benefit from technical knowledge and technique, it's not really necessary. Many fine mixes have been produced using "seat-of-the-pants" methods. Lots of technical rules can be broken in mixing for various aesthetic reasons.

 

Mastering on the other hand, does require a higher level of technical understanding of the tools involved to use them creatively and achieve a high quality product. Without that, you can risk doing more damage than good to a great mix. With that said, the mastering tools in Logic are fairly benign in that respect as they don't have as many features and parameters that may seem mysterious to the uninitiated. So they're reasonably "safe" but certainly not "idiot-proof".

 

So, I'm not being critical of anything you or anyone has stated, just generally warning that good mastering advice doesn't come easy and usually doesn't come cheap. In other words, if you want to do it right, you need to invest the time/money and study to do it right. But that shouldn't stop anybody from having a great time playing with this stuff!

 

Just be wary of the "misinformers". When it comes to mastering, and acoustics for that matter, the internet is chock full of them!

I have a slightly different view of mastering your own material:

 

http://tarekith.com/assets/mastering.html

I love the plug-ins that come with Logic, but as a final, I like to use Final Plug 5 from Wave Arts. It gives the song that final kick it needs to bring out the true tonal qualities.

To Fader8:

 

 

I was just having a little fun with that one

 

I should have started off that post with a big "hey I'm no EXPERT, but here's a few bits of what I've learned on my own..." but it was super late and I probably spoke too soon! LOL

 

After reading it back I suppose I did come across a bit too 'authoritative' perhaps, but as you say, just really relating some stuff from my own personal experiences...

 

Honestly, I'd love to send everything I ever record to a separate M.E. if it wasn't so expensive! I just happened upon doing some of it myself a few years back when I undertook the big project of cleaning up all of my old 4-track recordings from college. I've learned quite a bit about it, but yet still lack any serious technical training on mastering or for that matter, recording in general.

 

I guess I'm a true DIY'er at heart, even though it can be mighty frustrating sometimes

tarekith.. I like your approach.. kind of a "less is more" attitude:

focus on the mix in your DAW 1st.. get that right and you

won't have to overuse mastering tools.. and realize if you're

going to DIY it takes time and experience to get good at it..

good article.. and good music!