Multi-timbral instruments

Hi,

I need to convert a 'single-timbral' (is that what it's called?) Kontakt instrument to a multi-timbral one if possible - can anyone help me do that?

Also, is adding another track to a multi-timbral instrument as simple as clicking on the 'New track with duplicate setting' button and changing the MIDI channel?

Thanks

Sure, we can help. But you'll now need to be a little more specific about what you want to achieve.

Your turn.

no, if you wish to add another track to a multi-timbral instrument yo uhave to click "New with next MIDI channel" (the first choice).

the same is for creating a multitimbral instrument form a "single timbral",

next step is, go to the main tracks, click the kontakt player and switch from stereo to multiout if you have the need

then, just click "+" in the mixer and logic automatically creates auxes for your multitimbral instrument

if you click "new with same channel/inst" you will end up having both channels synchronized . you can also feed it via NOTE on/off channel properties, if you have 4 sounds for violin and only one line, so you keep it clean

cheers

Your turn.

Sounds like a game of poker. Ploki answered my question in one amazing swoop, so I fold, I'm out.

All I wanted to know was how I could add on an extra track to an instance of Kontakt so that I can load multiple instruments into it and use MIDI channels to control each one. That's instead of creating individual Kontakt instances for each instrument (which would kill my MBP processor in 2 seconds).

Ploki - first, thanks for your help. I understand adding a "New with next MIDI channel" and with "new with same channel/inst", presumably I would I do that if I wanted to use the same instrument to record a different melodic passage for example right?

Not sure I follow the Kontakt multiout thing. I can't control volume automation of individual instruments in a multi-timbral instance without it affecting all the tracks within the instance.

I assume the point of adding aux tracks is to separate out the volume automation and effects etc for each instrument loaded in Kontakt? If so, how do you assign aux tracks to instruments within a Kontakt instance?

Thanks once again for your help

Sounds like a game of poker. Ploki answered my question in one amazing swoop, so I fold, I'm out.

LOL. I didn't mean to sound terse. I just didn't want to write a detailed response only to have you come back and say, "Well, . . that's not what I really need . . ."

Happens too often.

Not sure I follow the Kontakt multiout thing. I can't control volume automation of individual instruments in a multi-timbral instance without it affecting all the tracks within the instance.

You can set automation points for instrument volume, or anything else for that matter, within Kontakt. If you don't like the fact that you have to look at the automation table in Kontakt to determine that #018 is volume for instrument 3, then you can use Kontakt's MIDI automation and use whatever controllers you like for volume. Then name them what you like in the Hypereditor.

how do you assign aux tracks to instruments within a Kontakt instance?

Your question is twofold. Are you asking how to assign an instrument to a particular output of Kontakt, or how to access those outputs in Logic?

LOL. I didn't mean to sound terse. I just didn't want to write a detailed response only to have you come back and say, "Well, . . that's not what I really need . . ."

 

Happens too often.

Totally agree (that it happens too often), thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

I'll check out Kontakt's MIDI automation, sounds like it could be the answer to a lot of my questions within multi-timbral Kontakt instances. With respect to assigning Aux tracks, I was referring to how to access those outputs in logic so that I can add effects or do simple things like pan them (I know some of those things can be done within Kontakt using automation as you said).

Cheers

*EDIT* Also, if I do add a load of names to Kontakt's MIDI automation in the Hyper editor, is there a way I can save it and recall it in new projects?

i said that, you just click the "+" on the kontakt's main channel strip, and logic automatically creates auxillary tracks that are already asigned to kontakt.

however, if you wish to do that manually, you and an auxillary track and set its input to "kontakt" (with a corresponding channel number of course.

yes you can recall them without much trouble.

you can either make a "template" project and open that one.

the other thing is that you go under "file > project settings > import settings..."

and there you click everything you need to transfer from another project, in your case, hypersets.

With respect to assigning Aux tracks, I was referring to how to access those outputs in logic so that I can add effects or do simple things like pan them (I know some of those things can be done within Kontakt using automation as you said).

Once you've instanciated Kontakt as a multi-output device, in say the Inst 2 channel, open Logic's mixer and click the + to create a new aux channel. Even though that dialog has an input selector, just ignore it as it never includes instruments. Once you've created the aux, now click on its Input field and you'll see Inst 2 as an input option. Select the output of Kontakt there.

Also, if I do add a load of names to Kontakt's MIDI automation in the Hyper editor, is there a way I can save it and recall it in new projects?

Yes. Name the hyperset and save your project. In your new project, open an Environment window. In the local Options menu, choose Import Settings. Navigate to your previous logic file and make sure the Hyper Sets option is checked in the dialog.

i said that, you just click the "+" on the kontakt's main channel strip, and logic automatically creates auxillary tracks that are already asigned to kontakt.

Ah! Forgot about that one! I still have a tendency to do things the long way. Must . . . break . . . old . . . habits . . .

hi guys, I must be missing something really silly here but I think you can help.

I've got a Kontakt multi set up.

Violins on midi 1 going out on stereo 1.

violas on midi 2 going out on stereo 2 to an aux.

Everything is great, I've got the aux set up for the audio, but now in the arrange I create a track from "new with next midi channel" and viola, it controls my violas.

Problem is, I want to rename the track "viola" but it's synchronized to the original software instrument track. So if I change it, they both change. And obviously I want the other to remain titled "violin"

I used to know the answer to this but I haven't used the multi instrument in a while.

Thanks alot fellas.

hi guys, I must be missing something really silly here but I think you can help.

 

I've got a Kontakt multi set up.

 

Violins on midi 1 going out on stereo 1.

violas on midi 2 going out on stereo 2 to an aux.

 

Everything is great, I've got the aux set up for the audio, but now in the arrange I create a track from "new with next midi channel" and viola, it controls my violas.

Problem is, I want to rename the track "viola" but it's synchronized to the original software instrument track. So if I change it, they both change. And obviously I want the other to remain titled "violin"

 

I used to know the answer to this but I haven't used the multi instrument in a while.

Thanks alot fellas.

If I understand it right, you just need to double click, and name each one.

You could control click to control how the logic show the names of track, in this case, a good option would be to show track name, cause it's independent for midi tracks.

thanks for the help. But the problem is that the tracks are synched. When I change one track the other changes with it.

You know what, I think I'm controlling Kontakt in an inefficient manner. I think I'm using the wrong type of track in the arrange window.

If I've got violins and violas loaded in Kontakt.

The original instrument track with the instance of Kontakt is on midi channel 1, and on that track I control the violins.

What kind of track do I set up in the arrange window, that is independent (name-wise etc) of the original instrument track, to control the violas on midi channel 2.

This is primarily for scoring.

thanks for your time.

thanks guys

thanks for the help. But the problem is that the tracks are synched. When I change one track the other changes with it.

You know what, I think I'm controlling Kontakt in an inefficient manner. I think I'm using the wrong type of track in the arrange window.

 

If I've got violins and violas loaded in Kontakt.

The original instrument track with the instance of Kontakt is on midi channel 1, and on that track I control the violins.

 

What kind of track do I set up in the arrange window, that is independent (name-wise etc) of the original instrument track, to control the violas on midi channel 2.

 

This is primarily for scoring.

 

thanks for your time.

 

thanks guys

The problem is just about track names, isn't ?

So let's see, follow these steps and see if it fix your problems.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4436/picture1vz6.png

Make sure you select multi-timbral, so , it's the same track on mixer, but isn't the same on arrange, its Midi independent tracks on arrange, so it's easy to name them independently.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7733/picture2sh7.png

Double click each track naming them as you want.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/3346/picture3mt7.png

Check if your track name configurations are ok, control clicking on track header to see this settings.

Good luck!

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8071/picture4vx4.png

i posted on this recently on apple discussions. if you ask me you have been advised to go about this the 'wrong' way - especially for orchestral scoring.

you should use your kontakt instance as if it were an external synthesizer. set up either a multi instrument (midi) or individual single channel midi instruments in your environment. then cable them to a transformer, then cable them to your kontakt instance.

if each single channel midi instrument is set to the right midi channel it will play the corresponding slot in your kontakt instance. so that is what you use in arrange.

you can think of the kontakt instrument as being like a bus - so you only need to use the kontakt instrument in stereo mode and you can automate volume for the whole thing as if it were a bus.

the transformer will transform you midi cc's on your single channel insts into the right cc's to control the individual volume and pan within the kontakt instance.

you can find the single channel and the multi instruments (midi) in the environment -> new -> instrument and multi instrument.

in the previous picture you can see how i have cabled the individual insts to the transformers and then those to the kontakt instance - except in actual fact i then set this up to use the standalone instrument connected via IAC. those instruments are what i play and automate in arrange.

i can't have separate effects for these in logic, although i can tweak the effects in the kontakt instrument - but in general i don't want to - and you are most likely not to want to in a scoring context either.

thanks for your answer stevenson.

Do you think you could explain it again, focusing on the environment aspect. As I'm not even sure what the transformer does.

I know there's an easy way to do what I'm trying to accomplish but for some reason it seems so complex. I familiar with logic, and all I want to do is have a composing template set up with one instance of Kontakt and 4 tracks to write midi notes on, and have them named appropriately.

thanks alot.

I figured a way. But why stevenson, do you think that that the method mentioned earlier is not the best way for scoring?

you should use your kontakt instance as if it were an external synthesizer. set up either a multi instrument (midi) or individual single channel midi instruments in your environment. then cable them to a transformer, then cable them to your kontakt instance.

. . . . .

 

the transformer will transform you midi cc's on your single channel insts into the right cc's to control the individual volume and pan within the kontakt instance.

This is interesting stevenson. I'm curious how this improves your workflow. I assume you've assigned cc's to parameters within Kontakt that the transformers are sending to, but I'm not sure why you need the transformers. I can see the need to create a frontend multi-instrument object when you host Kontakt externally to Logic, but don't see its need when hosted within Logic.

I've been using Kontakt multi-timbrally within Logic without any limitations that I can see, other than the 16 channel limit imposed by the AU. I did have to run Kontakt externally on one occasion, and I used MIDI tracks for that. But mostly as it appears in the pic here. This example is a single Kontakt instance with 4 channelized instrument tracks. I create a hyperset for what I want to control on each instrument within the multiset and assign cc's in Kontakt to match, including for vol and pan of each instrument.

Everything seems to work fine, but I'm cutious how your transformer method improves things for you.

it is simply that setting it up this way, using transformers, is actually simpler and yet more flexible.

particularly for orchestral templates, it is a very good idea to have a single channel midi instrument cabled to the channel strip. this way you can put transformers and other things such as cable switchers to transform or channel the data BEFORE it gets to the thing that actually makes the sound.

the reason you transform the controller data (and of course no, you don't absolutely have to) is so that you can use stinky old normal cc7 for volume, 10 for pan, on your midi tracks. no fiddling around with some exotic cc and assigning faders or finding the right automation thingo.

i can't recall what the cc is for volume is for the individual slots in the kotakt instrument are but i THOUGHT it was 11.

so what you do is simply set a transformer to convert the cc7 messages to cc11 messages before it reaches the kontakt channel strip. if you don't then the cc7 will operate the fader on the channel strip that your kontakt instrument is sitting on.

but that might be ok! if, for example, you were housing all your violin 1 articualtions on it, you may well want any of the single midi instruments to operate the whole volume.

but if you had say, a wind quintet loaded up, you will want to automate the volumes individually and then that's how you would do it. its vastly easier - vastly - than farting around with auxes.

as to my own workflow, i do it this way again for simplicities sake, and efficiency as well. currently i have an intakt instance (Ra) set up as standalone, because i have quite big instruments loaded up and and a very full template, so i was running out of memory within logic. i have the single instances set to the IAC driver and intakt set to receive standard cc7 messages. no need for transformers in this case.

the reason you transform the controller data (and of course no, you don't absolutely have to) is so that you can use stinky old normal cc7 for volume, 10 for pan, on your midi tracks. no fiddling around with some exotic cc and assigning faders or finding the right automation thingo.

I also prefer using conventional cc's for volume and pan. In Kontakt just choose two different cc's (eg. cc20 and cc21) and assign them with Kontakt's MIDI automation to volume/pan of all sub-instruments. So the transformers are very simple (eg. cc7->cc20, cc10->cc21). Overall I think it's a reasonable solution, especially if you don't want using Kontakt's multiple audio outputs.

particularly for orchestral templates, it is a very good idea to have a single channel midi instrument cabled to the channel strip. this way you can put transformers and other things such as cable switchers to transform or channel the data BEFORE it gets to the thing that actually makes the sound.

That's an excellent point, and a good reason to keep your template MIDI track->multi-instrument based, instead of using an instrument channel object. Admittedly, that's how I was doing it for a long time, (there's even one of my Kontakt templates floating around on this site that is exactly that). I think since I've been getting to know Kontakt scripting over the past year or so, I'm doing things there that I used to do in the environment.

I suppose we could say that for the user who's willing to sacrifice environment flexibility for simplicity, the Logic 8 "multitimbral" method is a prudent and simpler choice, albeit it does come with its share of caveats.

the reason you transform the controller data (and of course no, you don't absolutely have to) is so that you can use stinky old normal cc7 for volume, 10 for pan, on your midi tracks. no fiddling around with some exotic cc and assigning faders or finding the right automation thingo.

Indeed, there's a lot to be said for standardized messaging. However, I'm finding it's getting harder of late to stick to these conventions as virtual instruments become more exotic. Coming from the Kurzweil and Kyma camp primarily, where any controller might be mapped to god knows what mod source, I'm kinda used to it anyway!

i can't recall what the cc is for volume is for the individual slots in the kotakt instrument are but i THOUGHT it was 11.

I recall seeing a few multisets that had expression mapped to individual instrument volume by default, but the majority of stuff I'm using either has no assignments, or I don't care for the ones it's using. For example, London Solo Strings had cc21 set up to control attack time for all articulation groups simultaneously. That's just silly.

but if you had say, a wind quintet loaded up, you will want to automate the volumes individually and then that's how you would do it. its vastly easier - vastly - than farting around with auxes.

That's very true from the composer standpoint, and of course possible regardless of which multitimbral method you choose. But I find that when the writing and articulation is done, and it comes time to get a final mix together, that the aux channels lend themselves better to that workflow for a variety of reasons. Particularly if you're using a large control surface. When you put the mixer/producer hat on, it's nice to be able to hide all the MIDI stuff and focus on the audio side of things. When you only have so many brain cells left to bring to bear at any given time . . .