Scoring for constantly changing film edits

I've been scoring for a movie. There are lots of changes being made to the movie every week-- scenes being added here and there, as well as minor adjustments that change the time of everything.

 

I'm working in MIDI, so it's easy enough to move what I've made to match the movie. However, the move causes my MIDI notes to be off the beat. It still sounds OK, but if I try to add anything and then quantize... well, it's just impossible.

 

Is there a way to adjust the beat or time signature such that it matches the music after the music is moved to match the most recent film edit?

Tele,

JUST SAY NO to constantly changing film edits. On the other hand, if you can invoice for every change, it might be worth it.

 

But seriously, can't it all wait for picture lock?

Ha, ha... I wish I could say no.

 

I have never done music for film, so I'm hitting some learning curves, to say the least.

 

My ideas so far...

 

•Beat mapping based on the MIDI regions I've already created

 

•Adding a new tempo change right at the start of my MIDI region

 

But I'm getting a headache just thinking about this. There are four sections or so to the film, so I'll need to figure out an easy way to quickly make adjustments.

 

Hopefully someone out there will help me as I continue to read the fine manual!

There's no single answer to suggest, because we have no idea of how extensive the edits are, how they affect your music, etc.

 

If this is your first time scoring a film, you have by now already learned your first lesson, already made clear by fader8: Insist on picture lock before you start writing! Yeah, sometimes circumstances make it impossible to get the composer a locked picture. But the key word here is "sometimes".

 

My suggestion is that you haven't already scored the entire film that you tell the director that you can't do any more scoring until they have locked picture. Meanwhile, try to fix the rest.

 

Then again, maybe it's not even practical to fix what you have now because who knows, maybe they're going to do more editing! See what I'm getting at?

 

Is this an indy or a studio production? This is key! If it's an (unfunded or under-funded) indy that doesn't have any imminent studio or festival deadlines, put the brakes on and wait for locked picture. If it's a studio production, then maybe, maybe, you don't have a choice. Only you know for sure. But if there is leeway in the production schedule and you don't take advantage of it (i.e., asking for locked picture before continuing) then the headaches that lie ahead will be of your own making.

 

Yes, you can use beat mapping to accomplish certain things, but not if you're trying to speed up/slow down your existing music to fit new picture. If you want to maintain the existing tempo of your music but simply shift regions so that they fit new picture better there are various techniques you can use to accomplish this. But rather than shoot in the dark, it would help if you provided a very specific example of one thing you're trying to do. I say this because I don't believe there will be a one-size-fits-all approach for all your your problems.

This is definitely an indie endeavor. We're just trying to make something entertaining, while learning a lot along the way. At this point, there is picture lock.

 

At this point I'd like to be able to shift regions to better fit the film. When I shift the region I need for the beat to be shifted as well. I will be continuing to edit the music and need to be able to quantize to fix my terribly timing. I hope I putting this the right way.

 

P.S. Oh, wow-- I forgot how amazing this forum is! (Been away for a bit.)

One final question... does your picture have timecode burn?

 

(Please say "yes"... Oh, please say "yes"...)

 

If so it will be much easier to shift your music along with the grid.

bet ya it doesn't.

 

The director just said she will get me a time code burn ASAP. I hope that's good news. *crossing fingers*

Oh, so the picture you've been working to all this time hasn't had a timecode burn?

I guess it hasn't had time code burn. But what does time code burn actually mean? I gather it's not the same as setting up a giant SMPTE window in Logic?

Perhaps burning the time code makes it more permanent, and lessoning the chance that the timing might get slightly off later down the road?

 

Either way, I have just received a copy of the 8 minute animated short with time code burn! How should I proceed?

I guess it hasn't had time code burn. But what does time code burn actually mean? I gather it's not the same as setting up a giant SMPTE window in Logic?

 

Timecode burn is when the timecode is appears embedded within the picture itself. It's generated by the picture editor, and it must be at the same frame rate as their editing session (in FCP or whatever). In short, when you look at any given frame (say, 01:03:53:02), you know that the editor is also seeing that same timecode at that same frame. Being on exactly the same page timecode-wise with your editor is the only way you will be able to communicate where your music synchs to when you deliver it. Otherwise your communications with the editor will go something like this:

 

U• Yeah, that chase scene music I sent you?

Ed• Yeah, where's it sync to?

U• Well, you know that place after the bank robber stops running and then the picture kind of goes slow motion and cuts to the closeup of his face?

Ed• Yeah. I know the spot, but it's a slow dissolve to the closup, not a cut. You want me to sync it to the beginning of the dissolve? Or somewhere in the middle? How far into the middle...

 

So once you have picture with timecode burn, you can now communicate where your music has to sync to when you deliver it. That's just the half of it, but hope that helps a little.

I see your point about the importance of having time code burned, and am very fortunate to now have a burned time code copy in my possession. Perhaps there will be a few less headaches now.

 

So, how might I shift the music along with the grid?

You can only shift the music along with the grid successfully (i.e., accurately) if the frame rate of your Logic session matches that of the picture. Does it?

My Project Settings says 24 FPS, which is what the movie is at as well. My SMPTE window in Logic appears to match the burned time code as well.

That's all good.

 

But what are the problems exactly? Are some of your cues now early or late with respect to the previous cut? Or has the length of certain cues changed, and now you have to either make up or delete time from various cues? Or is it a combination of all of the above?

 

And while I'm curious to know the extent of your problems with this new cut (per my question aboves), I'm going to suggest that you post back with details about only one problematic cue for the time being.

Tele-pet,

 

Ski is really an expert on this subject, but let me offer one possible solution for what I think is your main problem.

 

If you have existing music cues that need to be moved to the correct position in the film, and also have them start on a downbeat, try this.

 

Move the midi objects to the desired position, then add a time signature change before the downbeat of your cue.

 

You might have to add something like a "15/16" bar, this gets your cue to start on a downbeat, and will allow you to utilize the piano roll editor grid, and the quantize function if needed.

Changing the time signature only changes the reference, not the position of your files.

 

I also recommend that you read up on "lock objects to SMPTE".

There is a long thread where we discussed the problems of writing several cues

with various tempos in the same Logic song.

 

Hope that helps

I've been scoring for a movie. There are lots of changes being made to the movie every week-- scenes being added here and there, as well as minor adjustments that change the time of everything.

 

I've seen this with all the work I've done for movies/TV.

 

Here are my three best tips:

 

 

1) A lot of people choose to work with one cue per project file. This means that if your movie has 30 cues, you need to deal with 30 different project files. If you want to hear how one cue works with the following/previous cue, you can always bounce a stereo mix of those cues and place them on a separate track at the end/beginning of the cue you currently work with. The good thing about having one project file per cue is that whatever changes you make to one of the cues, you don't need to worry about having earlier/later cues having their tempo/positions disturbed by what you do in your current cue.

 

When you're done with all your cues, bounce them, and name each file with it's actual time code location.

 

2) Spend some time learning Beat Mapping. Beat Mapping (in some cases, combined with use of 'Tempo Operations, see the manual p. 649) can be very useful for movie work, but if you don't understand what Beat Mapping is designed to do and how it operates, you can end up with a cue that has been perfectly adjusted to the new version of the cue you are working on, but later discover that the material before/after that cue is out of sync with the movie.

 

Sometimes you will have to use the Lock to SMPTE function in order to make sure your already existing material isn't time shifted - and.... not to discourage you, but even if you SMPTE lock the events before/after your current cue, you may need to re-beatmap this material afterwards to make the notes fit with the grid; these notes may sound right (because their positions are locked to picture), but they don't fit with the bar/beat lines any more, which may or may not be a problem.,.

 

Hint: Placing a 'security tempo change' - a kind of dummy tempo event that just will work as a 'tempo anchor' just before the material you are about to beat map can sometimes be necessary.

 

Example: Your cue # 1, 2 and 3 are done, but changes are made to cue # 3 by the director. You try to beat map cue # 3, but the way beat mapping works, tempo events are inserted/changed automatically in order to maintain the original tempo of the material. So, before you edit cue # 3, which may start at eg. bar 48, place a tempo event just before bar 48, with the same tempo that the last existing tempo event before bar 48 has. Without going too much in detail, this may ensure that what happens in bars 1-48 won't be affected by what you do in bar 48 and onwards.

 

3) Go to http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html and send a wish to Apple about simpler ways to deal with scoring to movie within one project file. One solution could be a way to force Logic to declare a part of the project as 'independent', meaning that whatever you did in that area (say, in cue # 3, bars 48-72), nothing would be changed in the other cues in terms of tempo changes or object/grid alignment.

 

If you want it simple, try #1 first, or possibly an extended version of suggestion #1, eg. with 2-3 cues in one project. But don't forget suggestion # 3.

Edited November 11, 2008 by FlowerPower

this is a more detailed explanation of what flowerpower was talking about:

 

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=2372081

Just want to mention something re my post above... the reason I stressed above that the OP post about a specific issue is because it seems he has several issues, including re-aligning existing music to picture, conforming existing cues to new edits of various scenes, and so on. I thought it would be more valuable to discuss one specific issue rather than try to tackle a whole bunch of issues at once. Having said that, I think it's great that everyone's contributing so many varied approaches to a variety of problems. 8)

 

Having said that, I'll throw one more tip on the pile...

 

If one of the problems is simply one of having to re-align existing cues to a new cut which, compared to the previous cut has had footage added or taken away from the front but where the scene(s) you've scored are the same length as before, it's much easier to slip picture against the music than it is to slip the music against the picture. This is done in the tempo window, and is dirt simple to do...

 

Let's take a simple scenario where your song (cue) has only one tempo event at the top. In this case, all you need to do is change the SMPTE start time of that tempo event. This has the net effect of slipping picture against existing music, keeping the grid intact. Here's an example:

 

In your tempo list, 1 1 1 1 = 01:00:00:00 (this SMPTE number is the SMPTE position of the first tempo event). We'll take it as a given that you've figured out that against the new picture your music is 8 seconds early compared to the old picture. Otherwise, the scenes are all the same length. All you have to do is go into the tempo list and change that 01:00:00:00 to 01:00:08:00. Voila, the music has been pushed ahead 8 seconds against picture and is now in sync. Or, put another way, you've slipped picture back in time 8 seconds against the music. Doesn't matter how you think about it. Either way is technically correct.

 

This technique will maintain the existing grid and won't change the position of any pre-existing automation.

 

You can also perform this same technique on a song that contains multiple tempo events (i.e., a tempo map). I'll spare the additional details for now.

 

One final word regarding this technique of slipping picture against music (or slipping music against picture, however you want to look at it)... in the Synchronization preferences there is a set of parameters that says "Bar Position _____ plays at SMPTE _____". On the surface it would appear that you could perform this same "slipping" operation there, and indeed, you can. But I strongly recommend against using those fields to carry out this operation. Yes, that function has its usefulness, but for now, pretend it doesn't exist. Trust me!

So many great ideas to try out in order to solve my problem. I can't wait to get to the studio tonight! I agree with Ski, that the it would be most beneficial to focus on one problem (though I certainly enjoy all the brainstorming and diversity in approaches to the problem!).

 

As it stands now: I have the entire movie, picture locked and with time code burned. I have a piece of music right where I want it. However, it has been moved and is no longer aligned on the beats/measures grid. So, the music does not need to be changed, just the grid.

 

I like the idea of inserting a tempo change before the music, which would hopefully align it to the grid. I will try that this evening and post the results.

 

If this works, it will help me keep the entire soundtrack within one project. In other words, I have two more music pieces to add which will not be at the same tempo, and must be on a grid

As it stands now: I have the entire movie, picture locked and with time code burned. I have a piece of music right where I want it. However, it has been moved and is no longer aligned on the beats/measures grid. So, the music does not need to be changed, just the grid.

 

What operations did you perform that resulted in the music going off the grid? Perhaps they're easily reversible! In other words, maybe it could be a matter of hitting UNDO a bunch of times util you get back to where the music wasn't off the grid. Depends on the number of UNDO levels you have set. And of course it might affect any revisions you made to the music in the meantime. But anyway, just as a thought, if it's possible to use UNDO to get back to the point where your music was on the grid, you can use (perhaps) my method to slip the SMPTE time to re-align music and picture easily.

 

Of course, another method would be to revert to an earlier save of the song where your music was on the grid. Then it's a matter of redoing any additional edits/additions to the music, and, re-aligning picture and music.

 

That aside, back to my first suggestion re UNDO's... If it's not possible to use that method, and you don't have a previous, on-the-grid version that you can use, I'd want to know the following info about your current song that we can collectively suggest the simplest way to re-align the music to the grid:

 

1) are your regions currently SMPTE-locked?

2) do you have automation written to your track?

3) do you have multiple tempo changes?

3) Go to http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html and send a wish to Apple about simpler ways to deal with scoring to movie within one project file. One solution could be a way to force Logic to declare a part of the project as 'independent', meaning that whatever you did in that area (say, in cue # 3, bars 48-72), nothing would be changed in the other cues in terms of tempo changes or object/grid alignment.

 

I think what you want is multiple arrangements allowed in one song project. And then a "meta arrange" window where you can string those together as "arrangement regions".

 

The individual "arrangement regions" of course retain their internal time signature/tempo map characteristics -- which are dynamically reflected on the (non-editable) "meta arrange" timeline.

 

Maybe multiple tracks in the "meta arrange" window so you can overlap/crossfade "arrangement regions" -- though you're getting into potential signature/tempo conflict issues there.

 

This would also be useful for music in other situations where you need a higher-order level of composition -- long classical pieces, continuous-play albums, "concept albums".

Edited November 11, 2008 by inquiry

Hey Guys,

 

I don't mean to put a damper on your enthusiasm about suggesting new ideas for Logic to become more "film score friendly". I'm all for it myself. However, it's OT for this thread. I've started a new thread called Making Logic More Film Score Friendly. I've copied FlowerPower and Inquiry's suggestions there.

1) are your regions currently SMPTE-locked?

No, not yet. I have plans to do so later though, at least with certain elements.

2) do you have automation written to your track?

Some, yes. However, they are very minor, and something I could re-automate later on, especially if it makes things easier now.

3) do you have multiple tempo changes?

I have no tempo changes at the moment .

Edited November 12, 2008 by Tele-Pet

all you needed to have done is change the smpte position of your tempo events.

 

simply drag the smpte code until the movie lines up with your first bar of music. you should be changing where in the movie the music starts by moving the movie in relation to your music.

 

after all, bar 1 can be at 10:00:28:00 or it can be 10:01:25:00. just changed the smpte position.

whoops - missed one ski's posts.

I like to get cues back to the director and editor asap and often try to email music daily in order for the project to grow or lean towards the tempo/dynamics of the music I have been spending my precious time on, this way WE can influence the visual side a little as well, I learnt that trick from Hans Zimmer who had his guys set up in the same building as the video post guys. also in the past year I've been accepting jobs editing video and writing the music which has been really cool, I don't know how these guys really edit video without audio

Someone took a look at my project and suggested that I simply move my MIDI regions so that they are back on the grid, then move the movie an equal distance. It seems to have worked.

 

I think that's the best solution for now as Logic's SMPTE and the burned SMPTE, upon closer inspection, do not concur. As to why that is, I haven't a clue.

 

This has been a wonderful learning experience, but one that has made me very weary as I continue on this project. I think I may play it safe and simply create a new project for each cue-- keep things as simple as possible. Gosh-- this being an 8 minute short... I can't imagine having to do an entire feature length!

 

I really can't thank everyone enough for keeping this thread alive long enough for me to get a bearing on things.

Someone took a look at my project and suggested that I simply move my MIDI regions so that they are back on the grid, then move the movie an equal distance. It seems to have worked.

Yes, that's the best solution for your specific situation since you have no tempo changes - and actually, also what Ski suggested some posts ago; IMO a brilliant suggestion (as long as you don't have a lot of cues in one project file, combined with only one of the cues having been time shifted by the director)...