| Guitar Theory Question |
sumgai
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 7
Location: NorCal
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 Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Guitar Theory Question |
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Hi All,
I've been playing the drums for 21 years now and I'm starting to learn piano and guitar to round out my musical skills. My life's goal is to write and record (at least) 5 songs, playing all instruments myself. I will, however, outsource the vocals.
The one thing I would love someone to explain though is why on the C chord in the first position you don't play the low E string open? C major chord = C,E,G, so why do you not play the open E there? Is it because you're already playing it on open on the high E string? Is it because it's a low string and the guitar might muddy up the low end when you add the bass guitar into the mix? Or is it because the lowest note played must be a C note (root)?
I'm new here, but I'm building my knowledge, a modest home studio, and learning all I can in music theory. I definitely got the bug.  Thanks in advance for your responses.
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muses
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 1038
Location: 10019
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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Usually you don't play the E string, as that would make your chord in first inversion (i.e. C major with E in the bass)... assuming there isn't another instrument below that playing the root C note.
Basically, there's no harm in doing this, if that's the chord you're looking for. The only thing is the way the guitar is voiced, your open C tuning would sound pretty muddy with the E in the bass. One way to get around the muddiness is to stop the E on the third fret and play the G with the C chord. Now you're in second inversion, but the sound is a lot less muddy.
Sounds like you may want to bone up on your theory, as well as learning how to play piano and guitar, just to get a better handle on how all this stuff works together.
This is just a very quick and simple explanation.
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sumgai
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 7
Location: NorCal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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That makes sense to me. Thanks for the reply.
I've started learning piano formally recently, which is coming very easily for me. However, I have always been intimidated by guitar with so many seemingly random string notes all over the place. I understand inversions and such but just didn't know the exact reason for omitting the low E.
Thanks again.
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David
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Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 27978
Location: Valley Village, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Guitar Theory Question |
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| sumgai wrote: | | Or is it because the lowest note played must be a C note (root)? |
Well there's no "Must" in music, but if someone asks you to play a C, it usually means they're expecting you to play the root note as the lowest note, especially if no other instrument is playing that note. If a bass or a piano player is playing a low C note, you have more freedom to play any inversion you want... but in that case, playing a low G or a low E note will muddy things up in the lower register, and your bass player/piano player will start making guitar player jokes behind your back. However, omitting the low C and starting the chord with the middle E (on the 3rd string) or even higher G (on the 4th string) is totally acceptable when another instrument is playing the low C. In fact, it's almost preferable.
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untitled1100
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 147
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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| Quote: | | In fact it's almost preferable |
...especially in more jazzy-funk styles, where the (rhythm) guitarist would usually play 'tighter' (is that the word?) voicings, ie just triads or 4 note chords, and this leaves much more freedom for the bassist. Sometimes, it can be said that it's even the bassist that determines the 'name'/'identity' of the chord, but now this goes into a little more complex theory..
I'd just like to say that it's obviously a must to know the basic chords (I think they call it the 'CAGED' system in modern music institutes), but do remember that as David mentioned, there are no rules, and a C chord is most definitely not only created by those regular shapes/voicings) but is sounded simply from any C, E and G notes on the instrument.
Good luck practising! and I'm sure with some perseverance you'll achieve those 5 songs in no time ! 
Cheers,
J
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JimmyDoorlocks
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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The reason is because guitars are not pianos.
Pianos have the range, and just the digital ability to be able to do that, guitars, in I guess "common settings" have a bass to back up those notes. Honestly though, hitting the E is fine. Don't listen to those chord charts. You could drop the high E and still play the low E and it's still a Cmaj, just a different form. A lot of it also has to do with the tambre you're looking for, etc etc boring stuff.
It's funny, because although it's a Cmaj, the E and B are more important to that C than the C itself, it's sort of implied. Like if I'm riffing over some changes, and I see a Cmaj7 come up to like, A Dmin7, I'd be way more focused on hitting E and B, because then I'm moving the E to F, and the B to C, because those are the 3 and 7 of that chord, and are what really define it as a Dmin7. Leave root notes to awkward bass players (kidding!).
Most those chords, are called drop 2's and drop 3's, because to finger, say Cmaj7, you'd have to do C E G B, which is not easy, with C in the bass. And nobody ever does just C E G B because well, it's pretty boring. |
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walkeraudio
Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Guitar Theory Question |
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| Also it is because in a C chord, C is the main focus, G is the secondary focus, and E in the least focused. What I mean is that when you have a lead singer and he's singing the note, your back up vocalist shouldn't be louder than the main note. If your intentions are to have a regular sounding "CM" then you do not want to play the low E for a few reasons. 1. Being in first inversion, the E in the bass automatically makes the chord focused differently. 2. I'd say the most important factor, is that you will have more Es than you would have Cs in the chord that way. You'd be playing E on the low and high E string and also on the 'D' string, while only having a C on the 2nd and 5th string. If you're going for a C chord with a heavy emphasis on 'E', then I couldn't think of a better way to do it. It is quarks like this that make it possible to bend the rules and push the envelope in the world of music, you are never wrong, EVER. |
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fpatrick08
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Boston, MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: Voicing of a C chord |
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In addition to the reasons specific to guitar, that people mentioned: the third of a chord (in this case E) is an important note because it indicates to your ear whether the chord is major or minor. Doubling the third of a chord, especially a major third produces a voicing that is usually too overbearing For this reason, It's a good rule of thumb not to double the third of a chord in most circumstances.
On the topic of thirds in a chord, a really interesting effect is to play a chord where the third is implied and not played. If you play a G triad with C in the bass (i.e. - G/C) the C chord will sound like some kind of C major chord, even though you don't play the third. These are sometimes called 'hybrid chords' and have a really interesting, distinct sound. You can play this chord in 3rd position. To make this example more clear, assume that the song you're playing is in the key of C major, so the chord is I.
Harmonically, the notes are
C - Root
G- 5th
B- Major 7th
D - 9th
NOTE there is no 3rd in the chord
Because we're conditioned to hear a chord with a major 7th as major, you're ear hears it as some kind of C major. In general, voicing a chord using a triad based on a different scale degree than 1 (in this example the G triad is based on the 5th) gives a voicing an interesting bright sound. Voicing chords like this is a very common technique.
A minor key version of the above is to play G-/C (i.e. Gminor/C). In this case, due to the flatted 7th (i.e. - minor 7th) you're ear will hear this as some kind of C minor chord, even though you don't play the third.
C - Root
G - 5th
Bb - minor 7th
D - 9th
You can also play this in third position on the guitar. Try them out, hybrid chords have a very cool sound.
-Frank
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fpatrick08
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Boston, MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: Chord inversions and playing the low E string in a C triad |
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The above post is still interesting and on point, because the subject is chord inversions. I didn't read the post carefully enough the first time, so I didn't address the part about the E being in the bass. I'd agree with the people that say - let the bass player determine the inversion of the chord, which makes playing the C on the guitar less important. Making the inversion of the chord part of the composition that shouldn't be arbitrary.
If you're writing a chord chart, it's a good idea to write C/E or some notation to indicate this is a different inversion) so everyone is aware of it. . If you're playing solo guitar, it's fine to play the low E, but remember this is a different 'inversion' of the C chord and will sound different.
If you are playing with a bass player, and the chord is C (not C/E or C/G) I definitely wouldn't play the low E string. If the bass player is playing a C and you're playing a low E, The interval between those two notes is a major 3rd, and will probably sound muddy and indistinct, that range is generally too low to have that interval and will usually sound muddy (to be generous).
There are some general guidelines called "Low interval limits" that are definitely worth knowing.
See: http://anonemusic.com/jazzTheory/low_interval_limit
They are general guidelines for the ranges where intervals between notes in chords start sounding muddy and it's usually very noticeable.
Making the inversion of the chord clear to everyone and not violating the Low Interval limits will give you a good sound in all cases. It's not as hard as it seems.
I hope that helps.
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denitronik
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 64
Location: Dorval Quebec Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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There is no rule or law for chords and inversions on the guitar. Go with your ears. If you like the C chord with the low E then play it! That's the beauty of the guitar, you can play the same chord many ways on the neck with many inversions; if the chord fits, use it.
I have been playing the guitar now for 47 years and using only the standard tuning. I'm still finding some new chords all the time. It's just fascinating!
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bprice
Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Long Beach, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: : Guitar Theory Question |
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here's a neck diagram of C major triads notes.. color coded(thanks Guitar Hero!!!...for nuttin!!) hahaha)
The different octaves(1-4) are indicated by the shape.As you can see triads aren't big mysteries.... there's just more options on the guitar where to play them!!.
I suggest learning the shapes on strings groups
ex
1-2-3
2-3-4
3-4-5
4-5-6
These are ALL moveable shapes.To "transpose to the "other " eleven triads... take note where the root (yellow for C in this case).
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