Logic 9 EXS Mod Matrix Issue

All of my triangle arrows have reset to zero (the middle) in files created in Logic 8, opened in Logic 9. Sometimes "recall settings from instrument" restores them, and sometimes it doesn't. I think the settings are still functioning. It might just be a display issue. But for someone with a big EXS template, it is very concerning.

Perhaps others can confirm this behavior.

The first image is from 9.0.0. Note that the triangles have defaulted to zero. The second image is from the same song file, same instrument and channel strip, with properly adjusted values (triangles) as opened in Logic 8.0.2.

I'd say that 9 isn't reading all the song settings from v8 projects. I'll bet the ones that do restore when you invoke "recall settings from instrument" are those that you saved in an EXS setting file.

I hate to suggest this, but it made sense to rebuild your templates when Logic went from v7 to v8, it probably makes sense again.

Thanks Fades.

I'm combing over everything, trying to discern what 9 is doing. I think that the instruments are performing the same. The trouble is, if you adjust it what you see (from the zero setting), then you lose what you're actually hearing.

Yes, what is recalled was previously saved. This bug may be as harmless as needing to recall settings instrument by instrument. We'll see.

What I never understand is how bugs this obvious are missed in the vetting process. In the whole of testing Logic 9, no one loaded a previously saved EXS file? How can someone miss ten mod matrices with zeroed settings across the board?

Edit: The emerging problem here is that the settings imprinted on an EXS patch may be quite different from what I was actually using in the last several months. (You alluded to this in your post.) Moreover, settings may have been saved to render an instrument playing by itself, but not as a component of a larger, more complex string sound in a more elaborate Environment.

I'll have to open a current file in 8, save the settings to instruments there one by one, then re-open in 9 and recall the settings just saved one by one.

"I'll have to open a current file in 8, save the settings to instruments there one by one, then re-open in 9 and recall the settings just saved one by one."

Sorry, Plowman, this won't work either. Below the first picture is of the recalled (correct) settings in Logic 8.

And below that, the same file in Logic 9, after the settings are recalled. They're still not right.

I also tried in Logic 9 to delete the channel strip and the entire plug-in, then reload. Same result.

Hi Plowman,

Wow... I'm astounded at this...

What happens when you save your EXS settings -- not to the instrument itself but as an actual "setting"? Do they recall properly then?

Hi Ski. I am indeed referring to saved settings which (as you note) are distinct from instrument saves. I even found that if you save instrument settings in 9, even 9 can't recall them with full accuracy. I detailed the problem thoroughly at Sonikmatter, if you want to check it out.

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44112-logic-9-exs-settings-alert/

I went to SonikMatter and was immediately reminded of why I don't frequent that forum. The moderator's avatar totally freaks me out. Y'now how, like, some people get uneasy looking at pictures of clowns or monkeys? Well... [shudder!]

When I have a minute I'll check out the behavior you described.

Hi Plowman,

I can confirm that EXS-24 matrix modulations do not recall correctly. This is quite a serious bug.

In my test I recalled an EXS-24 instrument (orchestral snare collection) that I've been using for years. Velocity is routed to filter cutoff. And even though the patch played back with proper velocity sensitivity, the modulation depth -- as it appeared in the matrix modulation slot -- was set to zero.

Wow, they really f***d this one up.

So good to know I'm not alone.

I *might* be seeing a pattern in which mod matrix rows two and four are particularly susceptible to the bug, while rows 1 and 3 seem to update and recall properly. I can't see a pattern yet in the remaining 6 rows.

Years ago, I would have gotten very upset about this. Now I just go back to Logic 8 and keep working. But this incident has motivated me to exhaustively archive my orchestra.

We are fated to camp outside of Apple's office and just push one hundred dollar bills underneath the door. We voice the injustice with a rant on forums like this, which no one of Apple consequence reads. And when Logic 10 comes out, we'll all be there, credit card in hand.

The only way we can win is to double-back to the tools that work and never lose sight of the music we are trying to make.

So good to know I'm not alone.

 

I *might* be seeing a pattern in which mod matrix rows two and four are particularly susceptible to the bug, while rows 1 and 3 seem to update and recall properly. I can't see a pattern yet in the remaining 6 rows.

I noticed that pattern in the examples you posted, but wanted to do some more tests on my own to see if it was consistent or not.

Years ago, I would have gotten very upset about this. Now I just go back to Logic 8 and keep working.

That's my take. Logic 9, much as I love some of the new features, is without question a beta version. It's not like I expected anything less, but some of the bugs and oversights are so glaringly obvious that it beggars belief how this was ever released to the public, particularly the film-scoring community who live and breath by the (former) boilerplate behaviors L8 offered with respect to EXS-24 and, although unrelated to this topic, tempo event behavior.

We are fated to camp outside of Apple's office and just push one hundred dollar bills underneath the door.

I wonder if Steve Jobs has a paypal account... I'd feed it every few hours for a few weeks myself.

The only way we can win is to double-back to the tools that work and never lose sight of the music we are trying to make.

Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

"...it beggars belief how this was ever released to the public...."

Yeah. It's like looking at the backside of a tapestry, needing to believe that on the other side it actually makes sense.

I am tempted to wonder if the "Apple Logic" division is actually one guy in, I don't know, Iceland, typing code in a dank, cement brickhouse, nursing a glass of flat Mountain Dew. And the testers are his mother and a cousin, who load the beta on a G4, wait for the Arrange window to appear, and declare, "That's it. Gold master."

Ah, such pitiful ridicule from a guy who has no power to stop any of this. But thanks for listening and confirming the bug. Logic remains the most absurdly powerful music program on the planet.

Logic remains the most absurdly powerful music program on the planet.

That's the problem... if it inherently sucked then we wouldn't care so much. But "they" just don't get that. It amazes me how Apple (and other s/w companies) continually make the same stupid mistake of releasing software before it's ready year after year, decade after decade. Now, according to Einstein, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Hmmm...

Hey Guys,

This nasty bug isn't limited to just the mod matrix - EXS is forgetting (or corrupting) all kinds of settings: zone loop on/off & loop points, crossfade, etc. - pretty much anything you edit in v8 is not recalled by v9 (and vice-versa).

Also, users of the VSL Performance Tool are hosed: my Epic Horns collection is totally useless in Logic 9.

See these threads:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/415729-logic-9-fatal-flaw-corrupted-exs-instruments.html

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2120941&tstart=0

And of course, report your findings here - this needs to be a top priority:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html

Thanks!

I just cancelled my pending upgrade order and requested my money back because of this. Money is the best motivation for a large company, and I don't have time to waste on this crap.

Thanks for the heads up.

Christian

I just cancelled my pending upgrade order and requested my money back because of this. Money is the best motivation for a large company, and I don't have time to waste on this crap.

Well, that's certainly one way of sending the message

I did talk to one of my contacts this morning at Apple who's VERY high up the Logic chain, and was told the issue is on its way through the proper channels.

Hopefully we'll see a fix soon!

Jim

This nasty bug isn't limited to just the mod matrix - EXS is forgetting (or corrupting) all kinds of settings: zone loop on/off & loop points, crossfade, etc. - pretty much anything you edit in v8 is not recalled by v9 (and vice-versa).

 

Also, users of the VSL Performance Tool are hosed: my Epic Horns collection is totally useless in Logic 9.

Thanks for adding this important info.

Thanks for adding this important info.

Glad to. See my edited post above - the issue has been forwarded to the mother ship

Hey Folks,

Just a friendly reminder to keep posting feedback to Apple about this issue; may of us are unable to use Logic 9 until this gets resolved.

Thanks so much,

Jim Daneker

Here's some new info:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2973

So it appears that the instruments should at least sound correct, right ? Can somebody please check if this is the case ? Thanks

Yet, the VSL Performance Tool in EXS is still broken, right ?

Somehow this doesn't go down well with me. I didn't really expect an apology or a promise to fix the issue (hey, this is Apple, right?), but as this stands I read it as 'Don't make a fuss about it, switch to Controls view if you really need the parameters.' Hello ? Of course I need the parameters, else I would rather play Bingo than EXS.

Christian

 

Somehow this doesn't go down well with me. I didn't really expect an apology or a promise to fix the issue (hey, this is Apple, right?), but as this stands I read it as 'Don't make a fuss about it, switch to Controls view if you really need the parameters.' Hello ? Of course I need the parameters, else I would rather play Bingo than EXS.

 

Christian

I agree. This is more like a workaround.

Maybe there's hope that they will fix it on next update.

At least Apple provided information that will make work for now.

Here's some new info:

 

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2973

Wow - that couldn't be more wrong, and I sure hope they don't consider that a viable solution...

How do they think we found this bug if it were simply a GUI issue?!? As soon as I started loading many of my go-to insts. in Logic 9, I was freaked out by the obvious corruption. Many of my custom patches were missing their loop points, LFO settings, Vienna Performance Tool status, mod routings, etc. - all of which were immediately noticeable and of course AUDIBLE.

I can't use Logic 9 because of this, and I know I'm not alone. If you're in the same boat, please post your details to http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html

Thanks...

Hmm. I saved a test instrument in Logic 9 and separately saved a settings' envelope release (second mod destination -- for me mods 1, 3, and 5 do recall, 2, 4, and 6 don't, and I'm not sure about 7 to 10).

When I powered back up and re-loaded, "cosmetically" the change did not appear in Editor, but yeah, it was in Controls, and it did play back correctly.

I, like whinecellarstudio and many others, have noticed audible issues, and I have assumed that settings have been incorrectly recalled or omitted. Now I'll have to keep a closer eye and ear out for such things to trace the connection. My instruments are so layered, it's hard to tell what's doing what.

Of course, it's absurd that we are looking at false settings in any window, much less the one we use principally. It's absurd that it is dismissed as "cosmetic," and that no apology is given.

So what if the speedometer says 60? Can't you SEE that you're going 75? No, Officer Apple, actually I couldn't.

About this whole EXS issue:

Thank you guys for helping me saving my money ...NOT BUYING 9.

8.02 still has it's unsolved bugs, and I dont feel like buying some more !

About this whole EXS issue:

Thank you guys for helping me saving my money ...NOT BUYING 9.

8.02 still has it's unsolved bugs, and I dont feel like buying some more !

You're welcome Seriously, you ought to copy & paste that at the Logic Feedback page - they need to know that this is serious!

http://www.apple.com/feedback/logicpro.html

Seems to be fixed now in Logic 9.0.1!

Broken Settings display fixed ?

Broken internal settings (Loop Points/One Shot/Pan/Vol/etc.) fixed ?

Broken VSL Tool fixed ?

Christian

VSL tool not fixed.... yet!

IMHO I can't imagine the VSL peeps want that to work in a hurry as they probably want to push users to the Vienna Instruments format!

VSL tool not fixed.... yet!

 

IMHO I can't imagine the VSL peeps want that to work in a hurry as they probably want to push users to the Vienna Instruments format!

Uh, who dropped the ball here ? Apple or Vienna ?

I'm not going to write off my substantial investment in VSL for the forseeable future.

Christian