bdtunes

You know, as redundant as many of you may feel about this thread, I couldn't care less. I feel this discussion it absolutely central to the essence of what makes a business relationship work: Apple sells something; we buy it; they support it; they fix it; they maintain it; we tell them what doesn't work; more people buy it; support & maintenance continue; more people buy it; funds are available for the product's development and upgrades and new features result; support & maintenance continue; more people buy it, etc., etc., etc. That's not happening here. Whoever benefits the most from this forum may not share the stance that myself and others have voiced recently. And if they do, they're knee deep in their own commitment to the product that they're too burnt out to deal with people like me, because nothing apparently comes from it. If users don't get it, can't make it work, or just are too lazy to read the manual, then great, there are people here who will help. Good for them and good for you. I am not one of those people. I described this thread and the related issues of LP to a lay person recently. Without bias, I described the landscape of Apple's acquisitions of late and of which platforms have received attention and which have not. With as much neutrality as I could muster, I described how forums work and how moderators are often anchored to an NDA with Apple. After some incidental questions and answers flew back & forth, this person plainly asked, "If they are not going to tell you anything, then what's the purpose of the forum?" There are a ga-gillion different stupid examples of exact scenarios I could mention where if a manufacturer didn't tell you when they would fix their product that you own, that it would never be tolerated. Software's apparent business model is immune from this? When David mentioned the NDA part, I felt like restitution had been made, at least, from a truth POV. That was it for me. But to be clear, I'm not here to trade stories with people or to trade channel strips or templates or show you what I wrote last night or this or that......! This forum served as a means whereby I could somehow and at some point find out when LP8 was going to be MUCH MORE stable so I could actually purchase it. That time has not come. If you're content with a product that works but can't do this and that and this kinda works and that works sometimes, then that's your choice. Is that product really working? Really? Ground control??? Anybody there? That's where discussions start and that's where ideas are born, contact information exchanged and people start helping each other. Wow! Sounds a lot like this forum. Well, continuing this great tradition leads us to where we are right now. I have questions. LP needs attention. I am entitled to know. If it's gonna get rolled up into Final Cut, just let us know. If the sickening trend in the post world is any indication, then I've got some bad news for everyone. Like I said, I'm not you and you're not me. I have had LP since v6. And my investment in and around LP has increased accordingly. But central is always LP. Transitioning to another platform like bmDaugherty mentioned is not a quick and simple process. If you want to try and teach me more about the finer points of Apple's indifference and how this is futile, spare me. When did it become ok to sell something, and let it just float unattended?? What's worse, this product has a loyal user base and many converts who are just wondering when this is going to stop. Settling with or tolerating or accepting or being indifferent to the areas that need to be FIXed in LP sends a very clear message to Apple. This message tells Apple that there is not a pressing need out there for them to follow through.

Yes Jay...and it didn't come from you.

My Mac does the exact same thing. But I won't move to LP8. This is one of the reasons. I'd rather have a loud fan for a while than have to deal with a workflow problem like a slow sampler. Either way, Logic shouldn't be doing this.

I know I'm a guest here and I appreciate this forum. I've been waiting to upgrade to LP8 since its release over a year ago. But I just won't until things settle down. My position is not uncommon. That's really where I stand with all this. David, do your findings in this forum have any audience with Apple?

Thanks for that ski. I think Austin Powers put it best......"Somebody throw me a freakin' bone here. I'm the boss.....need the info!!!!" ....back to work.....

Because anyone with access to any information is under NDA. AND THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM. The first rule of apple club is: don't talk about apple club... That's it bmD. It's pretty clear where things stand in this forum. Access is denied. The picture is getting clearer and clearer. Yeah, this forum can be helpful in some regards. But generally, there are boundaries where users cannot go. I wouldn't expect to have access to sensitive software material. But a line is clearly drawn in the sand: those who know are NDA'd and those who need to know, just can't. We'll take the scraps of bread until the master is ready to feed us.

As quantified and qualified examples of a problematic LP7/8 continue to be voiced, it is clear that the mere stumbling block of what defines a bug and a system failure for some cannot substantiate non-action. What may be viewed or interpreted by many LP supporters as building momentum, in this forum, can only be seen as progress towards what will inevitably benefit us all. That is the collective recognition that a product, advertised and promoted to be a premiere audio workstation, has to be corrected, and moreover supported. Some have cited specific examples of troubling intermittent problems that may be triggered by certain workflows. These are upfront and fair disclosures aimed at only ensuring the continued success of LP by necessitating FIXes not workarounds or whispering magical spells. Some have cited specific examples in professional settings, under hire for work, which exposed LP's troubled feature set, which often put at risk these contracts and critical work relationships. The fact that this even has to be presented in such a manner is ludicrous from the get go. If the product received the attention that it rightly requires, this entry would be saluting its abilities, not calling for its repair. But push must come to shove. All justified movements will meet resistance. What does your LP license mean to you? IMHO, my license is a privilege; one that I own which entitles me to all the benefits that we all have come to respect as owners. My license means something to me. I paid for it and my registration number says so. What value is a license if the owner has no recall to the manufacturer who sold it, under the premise of an advertised professional categorization. Why did I spend and invest in ALL the related hardware i have, which exceeds thousands and thousands of invested capital? I did so to run my DAW. I could have chosen among several solutions. In fact, I left a stable and fertile DAW and chose LP instead. I placed my faith and $ in Apple, as I have done since the early 90s. LP is the cornerstone of my compositional means. LP is central to my entire rig; my entire expression as an artist revolves around LP. The needs and alerts provided by LP's users forge the way towards a better functioning platform. This thread, in this forum, is not an act in vain. If you think this is dramatic, then how serious are you about your own art? That's a relative question for each person to answer. I'm serious enough about my investment to speak up after years of silence, reading thread after thread of users frustrations. It's not all doom and gloom. That's a given. If LP didn't work at all, I wouldn't be defending it right now, I'd be burning it. Step outside your comfort zone and assist this process by contributing to a growing list of malfunctions that in the end will hopefully hasten much needed FIXes not upgrades.

Marcel, if I knew you better I"d send you a picture of my studio. With this gesture, you would clearly see that investing in product and making sacrifices is really all I've done for my art's sake. That's not even remotely the case. No hard feelings. You just couldn't be more off the mark than what you assumed. I will not accept the current status quo of LP. Harping on this issue is not a matter of or expecting to be heard. The initiative here, at least for me, is to build a consensus and collective agreement on this subject, with the rest of this community. And I'm hoping this open dialogue will prompt more people to come forth with their own opinions on this matter. If someone is listening that matters, then it can only help. But how can the plane know we're stranded if we don't light the fire?????? I am well beyond the point of frustration. All is calm on the horizon. This just needs to be discussed.

Ski...I'm not going to do that. This isn't about pointing fingers, it's about changing attitudes. They know who they are. Silence is just as damaging as disregarding someone's issues. All of this is meant to be constructive. I've read many of your comments in hundreds and hundreds of threads, over the years. And your sentiment in the last entry validates you once more. Best,

You know, I can't afford to return to Cubase. I converted so many Windows (Cakewalk), DP, and even Emagic users years ago to Cubase, that Steinberg actually used to give me......I really can't say. But I moved to Logic for the very reasons that dmDaugherty mentioned: Mac OSX, Mac computer, Logic ammended for OSX, etc., etc., all working together. No one else was doing that then. I thought it was bold and really great of Apple to do that. Finally, substantial progress. What happened??????????????????? Yeah it's good....but how can it be great if its not being supported. It shouldn't be up to a forum to do the work of the manufacturer. That gig belongs to Apple. LP7 does work for me, mostly. I have had to tolerate certain aspects of the program to reach my destination. But I do get there. What's sad and unacceptable is what I lose along the way, creatively, as a result of intermittent problems that arise, distracting me from the fragile process of trying to capture an idea that is so often fleeting. Or else the silliness of its methodology in dealing with common navigational and editing moves. It just gets old. I'm not trying to form alliances with anyone here and I'm definitely not trying to alienate anyone either. I've been reading threads on this forum for years before I ever made a PEEP! WHY NOW THEN????? Because what is happening to this product is a result of bad business. Apple should be shedding tears of joy knowing that they have a user base this dedicated to voicing their minds. The common thread that runs through every comment ever made in this forum is that we have all made a commitment to LP. You think I have the time to sit here and list my edit issues with the surrounding parameters in the detail they require??? That's just not viable. Moderators should be appreciative of those that make that much effort, regardless of users' obvious frustrations. And often I think that's what prevents users from disclosing things. Communicating these bugs, issues can be intimidating, especially when you're doing so in front of so many attentive eyes. It's an act of vulnerability that needs to be acknowledged, quantified, qualified and solved. The scenario of ......"it's not happening to me".....or....."I can't reproduce it here".....by certain moderators is just not cool. Nothing gets fixed. How many of you pro guys are really trying to bend LP? Putting it through it's paces? Making LP sweat? I'm not talking about the basic stuff that just doesn't need much from the CPU. I've heard people's stuff that sounded good, but the intricacy of their arrangements were often....well...let's just say lacking dimension. I know a good riff when I hear one and I can recognize an exceptional effort when it comes to writing, processing, and mastering. With all due respect to everyone in the higher echelons of this forum....i have heard some compositions from certain persons and really was left wanting. Knowledge of software does not equal composing prowess, chops or anything of the sort. The point is that those that steer this ship of threads and advanced knowledge aren't necessarily the ones who have accomplished the same level of an end product as their knowledge would suggest. Just because you know so doesn't mean you write so. So they should not think they have the position to disqualify others' bugs, issues, whatever. I just don't feel that there is an equal playing field across the board, from moderator to user, for full disclosure or even acknowledgement of plaguing issues. Yes there is diplomacy offered by the moderators, on the most part, to impart their own brand of assistance and humility when faced with their own oversights. We appreciate that. Your position demands it. But because you make $$ off of something doesn't mean it's ok to accept it's shortcomings. Or to try and soften the reality of the matter by pointing the finger at the competition to show that they have problems too. It's not a conflict of interest to address bugs when you've written material that supports the product. It's part of the perfecting process. Followers point the finger and solution oriented people bear down and fix their own stuff before they look away. You think Chopin complained that Liszt was technically better than him??? No he woodshedded in solitude until his problems were addressed and THEN he showed the world. I also recognize a bug when I see one. It's a bit insulting to be told that a problem with the software rests with the user. This isn't the first DAW I've ever used. It should be easily perceivable to anyone when a poser complains of a problem and when a power user does the same. It's painfully obvious..come on!!!! I once attempted to SELECT ALL the regions in an LP7 song, which happened to be using a handful of Apple Loops. I cannot tell you how much I loved that song. Well, LP crashed HARD when I tried to drag the entire song to allow for a longer intro to the piece. After repeated attempts to open that file, I had to abandon it forever. And BTW, I've never used Apple Loops since. Never felt that creatively honest using it in the first place. Whatever. So...how do you respond to that? I troubleshot every possible angle. I never salvaged that song. This is ONE example. I have many. And yet.....I'm still here. Why?? Because like others whose bugs have been marginalized, I am here because LP is a great product. I've raved to so many in my networking efforts. I've converted and baptized several users to purchase LP. They even have newer versions than I do. I know a BUG when I get bitten by one!!!!!!! One person's bugs are bugs. They are not to be disqualified or disregarded. This is a matter of principle and business ethics. I used to really respect Apple. I don't disrespect them now. I'm just indifferent in regards to how they've changed since their iPhone,iPod, f'n this and f'n that product that reaks of consumer, proletariat nonsense. iPods??????!! MP3s?????? I work as hard as I do so I can have a product that degrades my sweat down to an MP3????? I will never buy an iPod no matter how popular it gets. And so I digress. Apple is more consumer oriented than its ever been. It's become like Phil Collins and Elton John have become in their older years...cheesy. Couldn't say that years ago now could we?? No way. But everyone's going for the buck to pad their retirement accounts for later on at the expense of now. I'd like to see LP have a larger user base. But at what cost???! Obviously, it's bigger now than when it was just Emagic running the show. Somethings have been lost in this transition. PT is slowly creeping up on all the sequencer platforms. The latest rev of PT includes a further reaching solution for sequencing; a long time hassle for all composers attempting to use earlier versions of PT for composition. If Apple doesn't read the sign of these times, PT will gobble up whatever remains of the truly competitive pro audio sequencing demographic. And LP will die and another great product user base will be left reeling. I don't have the $ or the time to leave LP and I really don't want to. Mediocrity should never be tolerated. And inaction does exactly that to a potentially great product.

Waterboy, thank you for your sentiment. And congrats on your training credit. Jay, I appreciate your response. I welcome an opportunity to really communicate my points with you. It may appear that I have a great deal of time, if my entries in this forum are any indication. I wish. I feel this is an important discussion, though. As I have done in the recent past with others, I invite you to correspond with me outside of this forum where ?s and responses can flow more freely. We're both CA residents. I'm sure we can work something out, schedule wise, that will maximize the quality of our exchange. Again, thank you. I'll drop by your website in a bit!!

I really don't think what we're doing is whining. The driving thought here is to get a designer's attention and to improve a product. If people continue to purchase and upgrade LP, what can Apple intuit except what they are doing is working?? What they should intuit is that people need and support their product. What percentage of our concerns does Apple ever get to know? What cycle in their R&D is even open to considerations for LP improvements? They are both small windows of access. .....4 separate DAWs????!!! True. As long as the lower end audio programs generate $, they will not let them go. Apple's corporate size of late necessitates a wider product line to sustain the machine. True? You tell me. Besides trying to hurt the competition, why do you think Apple reduced the price of LP with the release of LP8? It was a brilliant move by their marketing staff at appeasement and lowering their own obligations to a pro market. They sweetened the pot while indirectly making a pro product more available to the "masses". Basic math prevailed from that point. Where it leaves us is the main concern. I just finished a session for Disney today using PT. So many basic edits in PT need to be in LP. There's nothing but basic common sense that fuels this belief. PT has its own list of problems; it's far from perfect. But all I could think to myself was...."wish LP could do that"......."wish LP could do this". And it could. Nothing is preventing that. As bureaucratic and disloyal Digi may have been in the past to their client base, and continue to do so today, their product works at a rate or level that is beyond practical functionality. This thread is not about bashing Apple/LP and complaining about the finer points of a pro platform. This is about bringing LP to its full realization. LP is so deep in its abilities that what often should be one smart move ends up being four workaround moves. There are enough talented people who continue to stretch the boundaries of LP in search of more features etc. That is only a testament to LP's brilliance. This forum is proof of that. The current trend of updates-alarmingly few as they are- alludes to a band-aid analogy for what should be one-time FIXes. Our fingers are crossed but our eyes are wide open and aware of what could be.

You are very much welcome. All the best.

Very nice. Thank you.

Exactly Brian. That's the kind of support I'm talking about. Bad support has become the Bubonic Plague around here. It's just epidemic. Try and call Digi or Apple with a pro question! I dare anyone. The chances of......ahhh...it's not even worth describing. Hats off to Euphonix. That's one of the main outside reasons I'm committed to purchasing their Control and Mix systems. They made sure it worked with Logic as well. No bs. No lengthy set up. Just plug and play/work. That eucon protocol SHOULD make a significant dent in the industry. That is, if anyone is paying attention. Long live Euphonix. Did we learn anything at Apple?