Fine automation adjustments

[trance-ecj]

Hey guys

 

I'm trying to make fine adjustments with my volume automation in my project (also, somewhat new to logic, this is going to be my first track using logic).

 

I know u can click control, or shift and drag to make fine adjustments to automation, but for some reason, it likes to skip at times.

 

Like for instance, I have the volume set for a sample to move from 2 db in one spot to 3 db in another...but when i get to that spot and try to go to 3, i can only move the volume up to either 2.9 or 3.1

 

I can keep going .1 before and after that, but for some reason, 3.0 is not an option....2.7, 2.8, 2.9....3.1, 3.2, etc

 

but not 3.0....i know its not a big deal, but that's kinda weird to me

 

any ideas?

[ski]

Logic's automation doesn't offer .1 dB increments across the entire range of the volume fader.

 

[...edited...]

Edited April 8, 2010 by ski

[Eric Cardenas]

Logic volume is actually 10-bit. IE 1024 steps.

[fader8]

The 3.0 example is more the exception than the rule. The volume automation has to quantize to some level within the limits of its calculation.

 

There's 132dB of numerical control to the fader, sliced into 1023 parts. But they are not equal fractional "dB" slices as the fader has an audio taper algorithm applied. This makes it act more like a fader you're used to on an analog desk. So at certain points on the scale, the number will have to round up or down. Compounding this is your display resolution and making the translation to the number of pixels that make up the vertical height of the track, but that's not really relevant.

 

If it were equal fractional dB rather than tapered, the resolution would be .129dB, but as we know, it's better than that in the upper settings of the fader and much worse than that in the lower settings. Even if you modify the taper, the math will have to "give" a little somewhere.

[David Nahmani]

There's 132dB of numerical control to the fader

 

Actually the range is 144 dB, which corresponds to the 24 dB bit depth. 144 dB being "minus infinite", so the immediate higher value is -143 dB:

[Eric Cardenas]

There's 132dB of numerical control to the fader

 

Actually the range is 144 dB, which corresponds to the 24 dB bit depth. 144 dB being "minus infinite", so the immediate higher value is -143 dB:

 

Isn't the range of the fader 144 dB + 6 dB over = 150 dB

Then - the one value of ∞ = 149 dB?

[David Nahmani]

Oops - ok you're right the whole range of the fader is from -144 to +6 = 150 dB. But minus infinite is still -144 dB, not -149.

[Eric Cardenas]

Oops - ok you're right the whole range of the fader is from -144 to +6 = 150 dB. But minus infinite is still -144 dB, not -149.

 

Yes I know ∞ is 144 dB. Just excluding that value from the steps... but that is not necessary when I think about it. It should be 150 steps in dB = 1500 steps 1/10 dB.

 

PS the dash was actually a minus...

[David Nahmani]

Ooooh ok I see what you meant now.

[fader8]

Actually the range is 144 dB, which corresponds to the 24 dB bit depth. 144 dB being "minus infinite", so the immediate higher value is -143 dB:

 

I can't get -144 to show no matter what I do. -126 is all I can get with a click + Opt drag. Hmm . . OK, I can get -132 with a slow fade on the Logic Control fader.

 

Version difference maybe?

[Eric Cardenas]

Actually the range is 144 dB, which corresponds to the 24 dB bit depth. 144 dB being "minus infinite", so the immediate higher value is -143 dB:

 

I can't get -144 to show no matter what I do. -126 is all I can get with a click + Opt drag. Hmm . . OK, I can get -132 with a slow fade on the Logic Control fader.

 

Version difference maybe?

 

Click and hold the mouse then press control.

[David Nahmani]

Click and hold the mouse then press control.

 

That's not enough for me to access those values either. I only see those values when for example adjusting several nodes of automation together.

[fader8]

Actually the range is 144 dB, which corresponds to the 24 dB bit depth. 144 dB being "minus infinite", so the immediate higher value is -143 dB:

 

I can't get -144 to show no matter what I do. -126 is all I can get with a click + Opt drag. Hmm . . OK, I can get -132 with a slow fade on the Logic Control fader.

 

Version difference maybe?

 

Click and hold the mouse then press control.

Yup, that's what I was doing. "Opt" was a typo, or more like a brainfart. Anyway, see:

[Eric Cardenas]

Click and hold the mouse then press control.

 

That's not enough for me to access those values either. I only see those values when for example adjusting several nodes of automation together.

 

You're right... it only works between nodes!

It's kind of buggy:

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=49472

Edited April 8, 2010 by Eric Cardenas

[David Nahmani]

So fader8, on your picture, Shift-drag around a few nodes to select them, then take one of the higher value nodes, and drag down.

[Scott Jackson]

Interesting. I just happened on this thread and the same question is in another thread.

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=56095

 

From thread 56095

 

Can I ask one more question, is there a way to give a numerical amount to the reading on the automation point/dot?

 

If I drag the volume down or up at the end point, it only jumps from -1.1db to -1.4dm, I can't hit in between to match the starting point of -1.3db, no matter how close I zoom.

 

Click/hold on the node you want to fine tune then press/hold Control and drag up or down on the node. The pointer will not "stick" to the node but you will be able to fine tune the numbers this way. You'll know what I mean when you try it.

 

I don't understand why this doesn't work for everyone but it works for me.

[trance-ecj]

Ended up researching the issue and read up on all the replies here...

 

As much as I'm enjoying the switch to logic, this volume automation in 'steps' thing is reallllllllly irritating. I've had some 'wow, that's dumb' moments in Ableton Live before, but nothing as surprising as this issue in Logic.

 

You would think automation resolution would be a bigger deal to people when fine tuning things in the studio...I haven't had to make any specific automation ramps yet, but I can see how I can run into a situation where that would be incredibly annoying.

[David Nahmani]

I don't understand why this doesn't work for everyone but it works for me.

 

But that does seem to be working for everybody - at least in this here thread.

[Scott Jackson]

Click and hold the mouse then press control.

 

That's not enough for me to access those values either. I only see those values when for example adjusting several nodes of automation together.

 

you're right... it only works between nods!

It's kind of buggy:

 

Maybe I read this thread too fast David But I took this to mean that it was not working on individual nodes.

[David Nahmani]

No, we were talking about accessing values such as -143 dB. You can't access that value by just creating a node, click-holding that node, holding down control and dragging down.

[Scott Jackson]

Ah yes. I thought this thread had spun off a bit from the OP's question. I was referring to the issue stated here. Sorry.

 

Like for instance, I have the volume set for a sample to move from 2 db in one spot to 3 db in another...but when i get to that spot and try to go to 3, i can only move the volume up to either 2.9 or 3.1

[fader8]

So fader8, on your picture, Shift-drag around a few nodes to select them, then take one of the higher value nodes, and drag down.

Sho-nuff, that's what it takes. Although after playing some more with the Logic Control fader in Latch, I did manage to hit -140 with it, but I can't do it every time. Not that any of this really matters much. Anyone trying to mix with faders at these levels has bigger problems!

 

 

As much as I'm enjoying the switch to logic, this volume automation in 'steps' thing is reallllllllly irritating. I've had some 'wow, that's dumb' moments in Ableton Live before, but nothing as surprising as this issue in Logic.

 

You would think automation resolution would be a bigger deal to people when fine tuning things in the studio...I haven't had to make any specific automation ramps yet, but I can see how I can run into a situation where that would be incredibly annoying.

1/10th of a dB resolution is perfectly adequate for any mixing task. No other DAWs perform this function any better. But some are worse.

[ski]

Great thread, learned new stuff.

 

To keep things in perspective, think about all the records which were made on SSL's which had .25 dB fader increments. Or tracks which were edited seamlessly using razorblades and tape...

[Eric Cardenas]

To keep things in perspective, think about all the records which were made on SSL's which had .25 dB fader increments. Or tracks which were edited seamlessly using razorblades and tape...

 

This is a real good reminder.

 

For me the bottom line is using my ear and I can certainly not hear 1/10 of a dB on a blind test.