How to compensate for volume lost with Reverb

[ojan327]

Using reverb naturally causes a loss in volume... I wanted to know if there is a convenient way to make up for that loss, other than having to add the Gain (utility) plug-in to every channel strip, and turning everything up with that.

 

Compressor has a nice convenient Gain control available to make up for the volume lost from compression, why doesn't reverb?

[ojan327]

Oh, and I have been using platinumVerb, keeping the Dry level at 100% because thats the only way I know how to get the reverb effect without losing volume.

[beej]

ojan327 said:

Using reverb naturally causes a loss in volume...

Er... No it doesn't. Take a vocal, add some reverb - you've now got more signal than you had before.

A) You are probably using too much reverb, and B) reverb can push a signal apparently back in the mix, but this is not the same thing as losing volume.

[45rpm]

Take a vocal, add some reverb - you've now got more signal than you had before.

 

Yes. Maybe just a little bit more, but definitely not less. Unless you deliberately reduce the Dry slider.

 

It's easy to demonstrate this by putting a level meter just before your reverb, and then another one right after.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

ojan327 said:

Oh, and I have been using platinumVerb, keeping the Dry level at 100% because thats the only way I know how to get the reverb effect without losing volume.

First of all you're probably better off by sending from the channel to a reverb bus instead of inserting it directly on the channel.

If you choose to insert it then a dry level of 100% means there's no loss in volume. If you perceive a loss in volume it's due to the fact that the amount of reverb and/or the reverb setting is obfuscating your sound, causing it to lose clarity - but it's not lower.

Try using a slightly longer pre-delay setting and lower the amount of reverb (wet slider).

However, consider sending to a reverb bus instead of inserting reverb directly on the channel - and try using a good SpaceDesigner preset instead of the PlatinumVerb.

Inserting a reverb directly on a channel makes sense when you're using a (mono) reverb to go with a panned instrument. This reinforces the stereo placement in a mix.

[ojan327]

45, yes, i was deliberately reducing the Dry slider. I'm going to go ahead and keep that at 100% from now on.

lagerfeldt, I'm going to try and figure out how to send to a reverb bus. I am still a beginner at this, though I'm ashamed to say I've been using Logic for a year now.

I'm a music guy, not a computer guy, but I'm going to have to learn to be the latter if I am going to reach my potential as a musician.

If you can, please give me some more info on sending from the channel to a reverb bus, and the advantages of doing that instead of inserting reverb directly on the channel.

Also, what's the advantage of SpaceDesigner over PlatinumVerb?

[ojan327]

woah, SpaceDesigner is intimidating.

Any tips on this thing?

My goal right now is setting my vocals in a "space" with separate, already mixed, instrumental tracks.

I am trying all kinds of things, like applying the same reverb applied to my vocals to a duplicate of the instrumental track.

[redlogic]

If you can, please give me some more info on sending from the channel to a reverb bus, and the advantages of doing that instead of inserting reverb directly on the channel.

 

Also, what's the advantage of SpaceDesigner over PlatinumVerb?

 

To send to a reverb bus, click and hold on a Send slot of an Audio or Instrument Channel Strip and select a bus.

This will automatically create an Aux Channel Strip with the selected bus as its input.

On the Aux Channel Strip insert a Space Designer plugin.

On the Audio or Instrument Channel Strip, turn the Send knob up to control how much signal is sent to the Aux Channel Strip with the Space Designer plugin.

 

The advantage of using sends to a reverb bus is that several sources can be sent to the same reverb to share that "space" thus saving CPU.

 

Instead of:

inserting a reverb on the snare Channel Strip

inserting a reverb on the rack tom 1 Channel Strip

inserting a reverb on the rack tom 2 Channel Strip

inserting a reverb on the floor tom Channel Strip

 

use Sends on those Channel Strips to "send" to one reverb

 

Space Designer is an Impulse Response reverb.....it's more better than PlatinumVerb. 8) Read about it in the Logic Studio Instruments and Effects Manual.

Edited April 17, 2010 by redlogic

[k. bright]

Space designer has many great presets, so you can probably get away with just using those for the time being. If you want to play, I'd say start with the envelopes in the graphical display. Volume envelope if you want to change the length of the reverb, filter envelope to play with your cutoff freq over time, etc. If you want to get more in depth, of course, the Instruments and Effects manual has everything you'll need!

[ojan327]

redlogic, wow, thank you. looks like I have a lot of work to do. I will get back to you and let you know how it goes.

K. bright, I hope I can get away with just using SpaceDesigner's presets for the time being.

A question for you both, Do you recommend that I stick with just one or two reverbs on my vocals for my entire album? (To give the effect that it was all done in a similar "space")

Because if I try to find different reverb effects for my vocals on each song, it will not only take a long time, but I think I'll drive myself crazy.

I'm a perfectionist, and this is hard enough as it is.

If you guys have any favorite presets on SpaceDesigner, let me know. I have a very low voice.

Thanks!

[k. bright]

I mainly make electronic music, so I can't speak for good presets for vocals (I love the warped presets for, uh, warped sounds!). Just play around and I'm sure you'll find ones you like.

Also, when using your reverb on an aux channel, you'll usually want to set the reverb's dry output to zero. Your direct output from the original channel strip will function as your dry signal level, and the amount you send to the aux will be your wet level.

Don't be too intimidated by the whole bus/aux send thing. It's really not too complicated once you get your head around it, and it will open up a whole new world for mixing sound!

[redlogic]

A question for you both, Do you recommend that I stick with just one or two reverbs on my vocals for my entire album? (To give the effect that it was all done in a similar "space")

 

That's an artistic/production call you'll have to make.

If you're going for the "everyone in the same room" vibe, do it that way.

If you're "stepping out creatively", you can do whatever you want--however you want--whenever you want...just try to make it serve the song.

 

Also, remember that no effects can be the perfect "effect" sometimes.

Like if the norm for the vocal effects in a given song is thick delay and reverb, it can be very dramatic to "go dry" when there is an intimate spot or when the music stops and it's just a naked vocal...and then back to the delay and reverb.

 

Experiment

Be Musical

Have Fun

[ojan327]

k.bright, thanks for the pointer about setting the reverb's dry output to zero, I was just figuring that out.

The bus/aux thing is going to make things a lot easier, I can tell I'm going to be satisfied with it.

redlogic, thanks for the advice, i want to step out creatively, its just that all the options drive me crazy. there's too many!

Experiment, Be Musical, Have Fun. This put a smile on my face! Cous I've been a grouch for the past few days with this project I'm trying to finish up.

I've been spending a lot of hours in front of this computer to the point that my eyes are turning red!

[redlogic]

ojan327 said:

I've been spending a lot of hours in front of this computer to the point that my eyes are turning red!

So......THAT'S why your eyes are always red.

I was wondering.....

[ojan327]

LOL my smokin' days are over, I gotta get serious with my music!

[redlogic]

ojan327 said:

LOL my smokin' days are over, I gotta get serious with my music!

That's his story...and he's stickin' to it.

[keano12]

On 4/16/2010 at 7:01 PM, ojan327 said:

Using reverb naturally causes a loss in volume... I wanted to know if there is a convenient way to make up for that loss, other than having to add the Gain (utility) plug-in to every channel strip, and turning everything up with that.

Compressor has a nice convenient Gain control available to make up for the volume lost from compression, why doesn't reverb?

I have same issue I am using Valhalla and Eventide 2016 and lose about 3db-4db

[triplets]

39 minutes ago, keano12 said:

I have same issue I am using Valhalla and Eventide 2016 and lose about 3db-4db

If you use it as an insert, you will lose volume because you're committing the whole signal to the plugin.

If you use Sends and the corresponding aux, you won't.

[keano12]

11 minutes ago, triplets said:

If you use it as an insert, you will lose volume because you're committing the whole signal to the plugin.

If you use Sends and the corresponding aux, you won't.

I am using it as a send and there is a definite volume drop. I have a number of tracks going to to it at different settings.

[triplets]

14 minutes ago, keano12 said:

I am using it as a send and there is a definite volume drop. I have a number of tracks going to to it at different settings.

An Aux adds to the signal, so if your Aux has something out of phase to the original source, then the sum of both signals will create a drop in volume.

Or if you drench the mix in reverb, it will create a drop in volume as well.

Edited May 14, 2022 by triplets

[keano12]

thanks. Something could be out of phase maybe. I'll take a look at that.

[David Nahmani]

3 minutes ago, keano12 said:

Something could be out of phase maybe.

Do you have any plug-ins on the main output channel strip? If you're compressing the entire mix for example, then the more signals you add up, the lower each signal ends up being. 

[keano12]

On the master? Yes, tape machine, small compression and limiter. Once I unplug the reverb it is fine.

[triplets]

41 minutes ago, keano12 said:

Once I unplug the reverb it is fine.

What if you test that with a Logic reverb plugin that does something similar, assuming you're using a 3rd party plugin.

Evidently the reverb is doing something to your mix.

[keano12]

5 minutes ago, triplets said:

What if you test that with a Logic reverb plugin that does something similar, assuming you're using a 3rd party plugin.

Evidently the reverb is doing something to your mix.

It works with Chromaverb because it has a dry signal at 100%

[triplets]

5 hours ago, keano12 said:

It works with Chromaverb because it has a dry signal at 100%

So what plugin are you using that is not at 100%?

[keano12]

I was using Valhalla reverb then tried Eventide Stereo 2016 reverb. 

[triplets]

Can you replace those with Logic's Space Designer?

[keano12]

I'll give that a try.

[David Nahmani]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:02 AM, keano12 said:

On the master? Yes, tape machine, small compression and limiter. Once I unplug the reverb it is fine.

It could be the compressor and the limiter, as those can turn the volume down when the input goes up, so if the reverb makes the signal go up and then the dynamic plug-ins end up lowering the sum because of that, then the dry signal ends up being lowered in the process. 

I suppose that if you bypass all the plug-ins on the master, you should not experience the loss of volume when sending to a reverb on an Aux?