Stoobysnax Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 So since 10.6.2 or 10.6.3, they have fixed the timing of sidechaining on a bus (Ie. a compressor plugin on a bus, side chained to a kick... no longer pumps out of time) That's good... But, they broke individual channel time based plugins... Ie. On a track, you have a compressor with SC input set to the Kick. Also have some latency inducing plugins... then a Tremolo, or LFO Tool, or something that is time based and syncs / snaps to the beat. In this example, the Tremolo plugin is now offset from the downbeat, and is out of time. The amount its out depends on how much latency inducing plugs you have. The issue is, even if you compensate and adjust the offset of the plugin so it sounds in time, as you build up a track and ad more stuff, the timing can go out again... For this reason, you lose exact recall and for me, can't use anything past 10.6.1 because there are too many question marks as you build / finish tracks. The feel is constantly changing and needing to be adjusted. This issue is NOT at all present in 10.6.1. However, 10.6.1 has the bus / sidechain timing issue. Somehow by fixing the one, they broke the other. I have sent logic a bunch of feedback on this for 10.6.3, and 10.7, and now 10.7.1. Here's a very small, logic plugin only example session with notes if you want to check it out... To hear the issue, press play... the pulsing of the tremolo is "out of time"... Then remove the compressor plugin altogether (not bypass), or change the compressor side chain input back to "internal".... bam, the tremolo is now pulsing perfectly on the beat as it should be. *NOTE... turn on the click so you can hear the issue more clearly. It's really obvious. https://www.dropbox.com/s/g5a9degsfsi1mun/LPX%2010.7.1%20Timing%20Issue%20Still.zip?dl=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 I can confirm this. Simply adding an empty track that listens to a side chain (even if both tracks involved are routed to No Output) will throw off the timing of all time-effect plugins on any and all unrelated tracks. Tested various Apple and 3rd party effects. Did anyone from Apple ever respond to your feedback on this? I just sent a feedback form about it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 They don't necessarily respond to bug reports (unless they need more information), but keep hammering the feedback on this and hopefully it'll get properly sorted... it's probably a complicated issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted December 1, 2021 Author Share Posted December 1, 2021 I can confirm this. Simply adding an empty track that listens to a side chain (even if both tracks involved are routed to No Output) will throw off the timing of all time-effect plugins on any and all unrelated tracks. Tested various Apple and 3rd party effects. Did anyone from Apple ever respond to your feedback on this? I just sent a feedback form about it as well. Great thanks. The more people that send this feedback the better. They have already been in touch with me for more info / session examples, but that was on 10.6.3... Nothing since 10.7. I suspect this is a huge and complicated issue to fix. The fact that they fixed the side chain timing itself, but that that broke the plugin timing, to me suggests that somehow they are linked and it's not an easy fix. However, they need to fix it since both of these issues are pretty crucial if you use both at the same time, which I do all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 I suspect this is a huge and complicated issue to fix. The fact that they fixed the side chain timing itself, but that that broke the plugin timing, to me suggests that somehow they are linked and it's not an easy fix. However, they need to fix it since both of these issues are pretty crucial if you use both at the same time, which I do all the time. Yeah, I've seen similar issues with other DAWs' audio engines take a while. Someone designs the audio engine with a flaw, they fix it, the fix breaks something else, they unfix it, they eventually re-do the offending section of the audio engine entirely. Hopefully we get it all straightened out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 Anyone know if this regression is still an issue in 10.7.2 like it is in 10.6.3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 Just upgraded to 10.7.2 and this hasn't been fixed yet. Pretty annoying. Can anyone move this to the Bug Report forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted December 20, 2021 Author Share Posted December 20, 2021 I always send apple bug reports and feedback to https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html They often get back to me wanting session examples and more detail. Been back and forth with them on this one since 10.6.2... Just sent another for 10.7.2.... Anyone else that notices this (which is everyone using side chain, latency inducing plugins, and plugins with time sync'd fx) should do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 I always send apple bug reports and feedback to https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html They often get back to me wanting session examples and more detail. Been back and forth with them on this one since 10.6.2... Just sent another for 10.7.2.... Anyone else that notices this (which is everyone using side chain, latency inducing plugins, and plugins with time sync'd fx) should do the same. Right, I sent some too. It’s not just “time sync’d fx” though. You can no longer use Wavesfactory Trackspacer or any plugin setup to accomplish a similar goal such as Waves F6, Oeksound Soothe, etc. It’s a big drag on mixes from some of my clients that provide an instrumental and an acapella stem. I do think it would be helpful to have this thread in the bug report section so people can find it more easily and follow the issue’s (hopeful) progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted December 20, 2021 Author Share Posted December 20, 2021 I always send apple bug reports and feedback to https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html They often get back to me wanting session examples and more detail. Been back and forth with them on this one since 10.6.2... Just sent another for 10.7.2.... Anyone else that notices this (which is everyone using side chain, latency inducing plugins, and plugins with time sync'd fx) should do the same. It’s not just “time sync’d fx”. You can no longer use Wavesfactory Trackspacer or any plugin setup to accomplish a similar goal such as Waves F6, Oeksound Soothe, etc. It’s a big drag on mixes from some of my clients that provide an instrumental and an acapella stem. Oh right... When you say "can't use"... you mean, they work, but they are affecting / ducking out of sync I'm guessing ??(I have Soothe 2 but haven't checked in this context yet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Oh right... When you say "can't use"... you mean, they work, but they are affecting / ducking out of sync I'm guessing ??(I have Soothe 2 but haven't checked in this context yet) Yes, the result is out of sync with the rest of the song. So if I’ve got Trackspacer, F6 (or any Dynamic EQ), or Soothe gently reducing spots between 500-3k when the vocal gets louder, then you hear those spots getting quieter on the wrong words, meaning I can’t use the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted December 20, 2021 Author Share Posted December 20, 2021 Oh right... When you say "can't use"... you mean, they work, but they are affecting / ducking out of sync I'm guessing ??(I have Soothe 2 but haven't checked in this context yet) Yes, the result is out of sync with the rest of the song. So if I’ve got Trackspacer, F6 (or any Dynamic EQ), or Soothe gently reducing spots between 500-3k when the vocal gets louder, then you hear those spots getting quieter on the wrong words, meaning I can’t use the result. Got it, didn't even think about that. Ya this is really a huge issue... Nice to have side chain ducking in time now on busses... but not at the expense of track based timing... I'm still on 10.6.1 cuz of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 I'm still on 10.6.1 cuz of this. Good call. I wish they had a way to download earlier versions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentGHill Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 I'm still on 10.6.1 cuz of this. Good call. I wish they had a way to download earlier versions... Hear, hear. I started saving backup copies prior versions of Logic because of this issue. Any track-based sidechaining I do throws track timing off entirely, even if it's just Logic's native compressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 This also greatly hinders the usage of things like Zynaptiq Pitchmap and most vocoder plugins I've tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobyscott1 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Yes I've had similar issues since 10.6.2 onwards, some channel plugins nudge the channel audio out of time, it's a bit of a nightmare. Turning on low latency mode gets them back in time, but all externally sidechained channels then go out of time! Melodyne ARA and Nicky Romero kickstart create the problem, but most other plugins are ok. Have submitted to feedback to Apple but never had a reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Yes I've had similar issues since 10.6.2 onwards, some channel plugins nudge the channel audio out of time, it's a bit of a nightmare. Turning on low latency mode gets them back in time, but all externally sidechained channels then go out of time! Melodyne ARA and Nicky Romero kickstart create the problem, but most other plugins are ok. Have submitted to feedback to Apple but never had a reply Yeah, I haven't heard back from them either. Apparently it's either use 10.6.1 and have bus side chains not work properly or use 10.7.2 and have track side chains not work properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 Just wondering if anyone who is on Monterey can test out the link below to see if the timing issue is the same across Big Sur and M.... Trying to sort out if it's a logic issue, or an OS issue (I'm on BS). Thanks Ryan So since 10.6.2 or 10.6.3, they have fixed the timing of sidechaining on a bus (Ie. a compressor plugin on a bus, side chained to a kick... no longer pumps out of time) That's good... But, they broke individual channel time based plugins... Ie. On a track, you have a compressor with SC input set to the Kick. Also have some latency inducing plugins... then a Tremolo, or LFO Tool, or something that is time based and syncs / snaps to the beat. In this example, the Tremolo plugin is now offset from the downbeat, and is out of time. The amount its out depends on how much latency inducing plugs you have. The issue is, even if you compensate and adjust the offset of the plugin so it sounds in time, as you build up a track and ad more stuff, the timing can go out again... For this reason, you lose exact recall and for me, can't use anything past 10.6.1 because there are too many question marks as you build / finish tracks. The feel is constantly changing and needing to be adjusted. This issue is NOT at all present in 10.6.1. However, 10.6.1 has the bus / sidechain timing issue. Somehow by fixing the one, they broke the other. I have sent logic a bunch of feedback on this for 10.6.3, and 10.7, and now 10.7.1. Here's a very small, logic plugin only example session with notes if you want to check it out... To hear the issue, press play... the pulsing of the tremolo is "out of time"... Then remove the compressor plugin altogether (not bypass), or change the compressor side chain input back to "internal".... bam, the tremolo is now pulsing perfectly on the beat as it should be. *NOTE... turn on the click so you can hear the issue more clearly. It's really obvious. https://www.dropbox.com/s/g5a9degsfsi1mun/LPX%2010.7.1%20Timing%20Issue%20Still.zip?dl=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted March 15, 2022 Author Share Posted March 15, 2022 FYI just testing this out again with 10.7.3, issue is still there, they have not fixed it. Bummer... Back to 10.6.1 for me, the last reliable logic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 FYI just testing this out again with 10.7.3, issue is still there, they have not fixed it. Bummer... Back to 10.6.1 for me, the last reliable logic Disappointing how long a bug that was introduced has been staying in. I do have 10.6.1 as well but so many stability issues were fixed between now and then that it actually isn't so reliable in my studio. Shame, really, since I have to resort to a lot of weird routing with buses just to run a single track to a plugin's side chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted March 16, 2022 Author Share Posted March 16, 2022 FYI just testing this out again with 10.7.3, issue is still there, they have not fixed it. Bummer... Back to 10.6.1 for me, the last reliable logic Disappointing how long a bug that was introduced has been staying in. I do have 10.6.1 as well but so many stability issues were fixed between now and then that it actually isn't so reliable in my studio. Shame, really, since I have to resort to a lot of weird routing with buses just to run a single track to a plugin's side chain. Ya for me it's the inconsistency with things like Tremelo plugins, LFO Tool, etc. As the project evolves, the timing keeps shifting more and more, and you have to constantly adjust the "offset" to have it snap to the grid. Which means the tracks feel can subtly shift / change as you go without fully realizing it. It's so frustrating. I do like that busses can be side chain compressed now properly... But the work around before was at least more reliable than the work around now for the new issues. I still think that this bug is a very difficult fix for them... I'm almost doubting that we'll get a fix before a huge shift to a Logic 11 or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansolas Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I also can reprodue this like the following: procedure: 1.) one track playing steady noise 2.) addlimited with 200ms lookahead (to make it the most obvious 3.) added tremolo to gate the noise at 1/4 4.) bounce result: delay is properly compensated 5.) add compressor to the new bounced audio track 6.) select instrument 1 (the one playing the noise) as sidechain input 7.) bounce instrument 1 result: timing it totally broken, plugin delay compensation do not work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoobysnax Posted March 21, 2022 Author Share Posted March 21, 2022 I also can reprodue this like the following:procedure: 1.) one track playing steady noise 2.) addlimited with 200ms lookahead (to make it the most obvious 3.) added tremolo to gate the noise at 1/4 4.) bounce result: delay is properly compensated 5.) add compressor to the new bounced audio track 6.) select instrument 1 (the one playing the noise) as sidechain input 7.) bounce instrument 1 result: timing it totally broken, plugin delay compensation do not work Screenshot 2022-03-21 at 14.08.51.png Yup exactly, there you go. And this does not happen with 10.6.1 or earlier. Just a massive issue with logic now, which for me has made anything passed 10.6.1 unusable / unreliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansolas Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I had just another issue, I cound save a project. Even tho I clicked on the save dialog to enter a name, the focus always goes away so that i cant name teh project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eathumanrawhide Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 I bought Pro Tools this week. These Logic bugs are ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omt2e Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 Has anyone figured out a solution or workaround to this issue? I am still experiencing it in 10.7.5... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbrother Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 In many situations you can work around it by creating buses and only sidechaining between buses. Buses are not subject to the same bugs as single tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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