Bad automation behavior! (10.1) [FIXED]

I've used Logic for years and never had this problem...

I'm mixing a project in Logic x 10.1.0, I have all tracks set to 'latch'. Let's say my bass volume fader is at -10 and while playing the project, I move the fader to -1 for a few measures and hit stop...the fader goes back to -10! The automation is correctly represented for the few measures I played the project, but as soon as I stop, the automation line goes back to -10. this is a mess!

 

In the automation preferences, I've set the 'write' mode changes to 'read'. In the past, this is always how I've used this mode. In the above example, I expect the automation to remain at -1 when I hit stop, and remain there until I make another adjustment to the bass track. Any ideas? thanks!

There's clearly something wrong with latch mode.

 

Moving this to the Bugs & Workarounds forum.

Ok - so it's been moved but is there a workaround for this? I've started a new project and the exact same thing is happening.Is this just a case of "Sorry, You're screwed?" Any suggestions?!!!!

Actually, the problem exists in any automation mode....even if I have a track in 'write mode' as soon as I stop playing, the automation line goes back to what ever it was when play began, as I've explained in my previous post. Since I've gotten ZERO help for this utterly DISASTROUS problem, I'm currently re-installing logic x in hopes it fixes it. Surely I'm not the only Logic X user experiencing this problem? I can't find a single other thread with this particular problem. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

What you describe happening in Latch mode actually sounds like you're using Touch mode, which behaves as you describe. In Latch mode, once a controller changes it should stay there, in Touch mode, the value of the controller will snap back to the previous value after a set time.

Write mode should never be used, think of it not as "Write" but as a "Erase everything" mode.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Eriksimon

This is not project corruption. The Latch mode behavior changed in 10.1, I believe it was to fix a bug, to avoid the issue you'd get with Latch mode pre-10.1: when releasing a fader/knob in Latch mode, you would sometimes get a long ramp up or down from the last parameter value received by Logic and the next pre-existing control-point on the automation track.

 

However the new behavior poses its own challenges. For example if you've set a section's volume automation at, say, -10 dB, and have another section at another volume later in the track. Now use Latch mode to quickly raise the volume at the beginning of the -10 dB section to 0 dB, now in 10.1 you see a long ramp down from 0 dB to -10 dB when you release the volume fader (during playback). Stop playback, and that ramp disappears to show you the correct Latch automation. That's pretty much the opposite of what you'd get in 10.0.7, which is in itself definitely a progress in the right direction.

If it is like David says, a fix, you can workaround it by deleting the last automation point by hand.

Or if you don't have any automation later in time use the key command for Write Automation to End.

Thanks for the replies!! But I feel stunned by what David describes: this behavior is a 'fix'? Think this out...read my original post where I detailed the problem...this behavior is a NIGHTMARE! Unless I do what Eric suggests, delete the last automation point EVERYTIME I hit stop, for EVERY track that had a fader or any parameter changed, the automation line ALWAYS returns to the very first value from the very beginning of the project!!! Either I'm not explaining my problem correctly, or I'm totally misunderstanding David's reply. This behavior is IMPOSSIBLE to be considered a fix. I've used Logic since version 8 and I CANNOT mix with this behavior.

 

Consider this: if I have multiple channel eq plugins on a track and I'm trying to automate (in latch mode) the first turning off, and the second becoming active, as soon as I hit stop, THE FIRST ONE TURNS BACK ON, AND THE SECOND TURNS OFF!!!! There are a HOST of situations that amplify this problem. Please tell me I'm missing something!! I'm serious, I must not be understanding you correctly, or you are not understanding the problem I'm having correctly! HEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLPPPPPP!

Also, upon re-reading David's response, your scenario involves having a pre-existing automation point later in the project. But consider a fresh project that has no automation points beyond wherever the playhead is...that"s my problem! It's not returning to any automation points later in the project, it's returning to whatever the original value was at the very beginning of the project, the exact OPPOSITE of what you are describing! That's why I find it impossible to believe I'm dealing with a 'fix'.

 

p.s. I needed to update my signature, as I have been using the 10.1.0 update while experiencing this problem.

this behavior is a 'fix'?

 

I understand the frustration. I have also grown accustomed to the way Logic has handled latch.

However I believe David when he says this is a fix as other DAWs that I know have had this behaviour since automation was implemented.

 

But consider a fresh project that has no automation points beyond wherever the playhead is...that"s my problem!

 

This is when you want to use this option:

 

if you don't have any automation later in time use the key command for Write Automation to End.

Ok, Eric, you closed my post as I attempted to open another thread hoping to get help of some kind. "Write automation to end" does NOTHING...it doesn't work, and I even researched a thread where David said the same thing. I'm frustrated that I've been told this is a 'fix' by David, and you've told me just delete every last automation point. I've received a lot of help from both you and David over the years for many issues that I've never had to post about and I appreciate it. I feel panicked, because I don't think I'm getting straight answers on this issue. Am I the only person using Logic that is experiencing this issue? That's why i re-posted. Are YOU experiencing this issue? If not, then why is David telling me this is a 'fix'? Can you not see how frustrating that is to read? And yes, I made Apple aware of this issue after you closed my post....I didn't do it before because of what David told me! If there is no help for this issue, please ease my mind by saying something like, "No one else is experiencing this problem, it sounds like there's something wrong with your particular version of Logic and we don't know what to do to help" I would feel better about that. If this is truly the way Logic will now behave, I feel depressed and don't know what to do. Thanks

"Write automation to end" does NOTHING...it doesn't work

 

It works perfectly fine.

You have to do this before you press the stop button.

 

Are YOU experiencing this issue?

 

Everyone using Logic Pro X 10.1 is experiencing this.

It isn't your computer or your project. It is just how it's implemented as of 10.1.

Alright...thanks a TON for putting up with my frustration, Eric. I understand this is the way Logic will now behave. ProTools does this and I HATE it, which is one of the main reasons I've been a logic user for so long. I'm bouncing a large project right now, so I can't try the write automation to end function again, but that sounds like it would be great if I can get it to work...I thought I tried it both playing and stopped, both without any result, but maybe not. I'll stop posting on this issue, although I am INCREDIBLY disappointed that Apple has done this. Maybe other users will love it, I just can't fathom how it's better than the way it's always worked, but I realize you didn't make the change! Thanks again for the many times you've unknowingly helped me over the years. Peace

And lastly, the 'write automation to end' is DEFINITELY the way to work around this. I just have to hit the key command I've set up after every change I make before i hit stop, but it definitely causes it to behave the way it used to. It's a little tricky when automating plugins, but all things considered, this truly rescues the usefulness of 'latch' mode. I truly can't thank you enough!

You're most welcome Timothy.

I'm glad you that it worked for you.

That's pretty much the opposite of what you'd get in 10.0.7, which is in itself definitely a progress in the right direction.

 

I now better understand what you are saying. I think to perfect this issue, Logic would by default 'write automation to end' on a track that had no automation points beyond the current position of the playhead. Maybe that is too difficult to write into the program, but they definitely screwed up my own personal workflow!

You said: "It's not returning to any automation points later in the project, it's returning to whatever the original value was at the very beginning of the project,"

I am running 10.1 and when I use Latch mode, move a fader, then Stop, Logic returns the value to whatever the prior automation values was in the track, not to the very first value in the track. In either case, using Write Automation to End is great to know! Perhaps in your feedback you could simply suggest a second Latch mode option be added, whose behavior would incorporate that action ("Latch till End" mode??). I'll file that one as well.

PS: I posted this on Apple's Logic Feedback page:

"In 10.1, the Latch mode behavior is such that when you press stop the automation value returns to it's prior value instantly. There is a separate key command that has to be pressed before pressing Stop if you want to get the new value to persist till the end, overwriting any following points - useful for first pass automation ("Write Automation to End"). Since the latter behavior can be desirable, consider adding a second Latch Mode called something like "Latch Till End" that would automatically incorporate the action of the key command so that the final value would persist."

SO, liken the Write Automation to End command, I tested the Write Automation to Right Locator command. This seems to work incorrectly: Here's my feedback post:

"... I tested the "Write Automation to Right Locator" command. I believe this should create a horizontal straight line value leading to the automation value existing at the right locator; instead it simply ramps up from wherever you press the command to that value."

So there's definitely a bug where when you stop playback after writing automation in Latch mode, the value displayed by the automation line at the playhead position is not the same as the value displayed by the fader.

 

As for the behavior when no prior automation is present, it is not the expected behavior.

 

The Logic team is aware of both issues.

I would think the behavior of the "Write Automation to Right Locator" command is also a bug - no?

I would think the behavior of the "Write Automation to Right Locator" command is also a bug - no?

To keep things organized, let's keep one subject per thread. Please start a new thread for this new topic. Thank you.

consider adding a second Latch Mode called something like "Latch Till End" that would automatically incorporate the action of the key command so that the final value would persist."

 

That's a perfect solution! And I was wrong in how I described my latch problem...it was actually as you described, going back to the most recent value that existed before making new automation points.

 

This is the 'latch' mode behavior you get in PT11 as well, which I hope and pray Logic is NOT trying to emulate. I admit that latch mode behavior pre 10.1 did cause problems if you had automation points later in the project, but that's when I would always switch to touch mode, unless it was a long section I needed to edit, at which point I would use automation snapshots, or just do it manually. But for first pass mixing, pre 10.1 Latch was the greatest thing in the universe. Thanks Jonperi for suggesting that to Apple!

As for the behavior when no prior automation is present, it is not the expected behavior.

 

The Logic team is aware of both issues.

 

That makes me feel less crazy! But again, that's exactly how PT handles latch mode and it totally sucks! I'm glad they know and I would expect an ingenious solution!

You are not mad - I've been searching for an answer to this for a while, having used the Studer and Neve automation since the 80s. There are two things missing with Logic automation, the first is Write to End or locate point, and the second is a glide mode. I don't know if this is available and I just can't find it, but in most automation software I use, in touch mode you can select the time the parameter drifts back to once you release the fader or knob. There should be no abrupt changes of automation data. I'm using it for the first time to post produce a TV programme and it's adding a considerable amount of time to the project.

[…] missing […] is a glide mode. I don't know if this is available and I just can't find it, but in most automation software I use, in touch mode you can select the time the parameter drifts back to once you release the fader or knob.

 

It is available, though semi-hidden.

 

 

the parameter for the "return time" in Touch mode: max 9.999 seconds

 

http://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10.1/#/lgcp8aa8f24b

Thank you so much for that! I had been searching the help section for ages. Now just one problem to go.

I have to say that overall, logic X is pretty impressive, doing nearly everything that Pyramix or Pro Tools does but at a fraction of the cost. Although I own both other systems, I'm going to persevere with Logic to see if I can produce a finished show on it.

This is fixed in Logic Pro X 10.2.

Hello Everyone,

I Finally found a workaround for the absurd latch automation behaviour in Logic ! The last automation volume doesn't hold its place and jumps back to the previous value where we started.

 

THE ANSWER :

 

While Automating, DO NOT PRESS STOP once you are done, PRESS THE PLAY. And then Press the STOP

 

I repeat, Usually we press stop once we finish a pass. But now just press the PLAY again, and then press the STOP ! This will ensure we bypass the logic absurd latch style.

 

THIS is the best workaround I have found over the last one year of suffering !

 

Thank you. Hope you guys are relieved

Saish...thanks for posting this. I haven't tried your suggestion, but I will. What I have done is gone into my time machine (mac OS) and restored Logic back to 10.2.0 Mainly because I had a quick keyboard shortcut for 'write automation to end'. Not sure if your workaround allows for this or maybe your workaround doesn't require this command. I have 10.2.3 installed on my MBP and I will test your way. Thanks for posting this!