External instrument vs External midi

I was wondering what the advantages are of both the external instrument and external midi.

For the external instrument the only advantage I can think of is that you can send it midi and it will return audio to you.

Disadvantages is that you can't record the audio of the external instrument in that external instrument track (unless I miss something)

 

At this moment I don't know what the advantage is of external midi. When you use it in combination with a synth you will need an extra audio track to hear the synth.

 

I hope anyone can chime in and enlighten me on this.

I was wondering what the advantages are of both the external instrument and external midi.

For the external instrument the only advantage I can think of is that you can send it midi and it will return audio to you.

Disadvantages is that you can't record the audio of the external instrument in that external instrument track (unless I miss something)

 

At this moment I don't know what the advantage is of external midi. When you use it in combination with a synth you will need an extra audio track to hear the synth.

 

Well, Logic has always been about options, and it's also evolved a lot over time, so there are often multiple ways of doing things, with different advantages and disadvantages.

 

Not everyone wants to return the audio of synths back into Logic (they might be externally monitoring through their audio interface, or a mixer)

 

For a long time, the way you handled external hardware synths was using a regular environment object on one track to handle the MIDI, then having a second track, set as an "Input" audio object, to handle the audio coming in from the synth.

 

The external instrument plug-in is just a convenience that bundles all that up into one convenient track so you can sequence and hear the audio, process FX on it and so on live. It's a MIDI track object, so you're recording MIDI to Logic.

 

If you want to bounce that instrument to audio, you can do that via bounce (obviously, Logic can't change the speed of the universe so it has to be a real time bounce, rather than an offline bounce), or you can route that instrument channel to a bus, set that bus as an input to a new audio track and record - lots of ways.

 

An "External MIDI" track (without checking "Use external instrument plugin") is the old school Logic - it simply creates a MIDI instrument object in the environment so you can route MIDI to an external synth - without caring about the audio.

Thanks for the explanation and especially the bouncing part.

 

And it's interesting to know that an external midi track creates a midi instrument object in the environment.

And it's interesting to know that an external midi track creates a midi instrument object in the environment.

 

In Logic, a "track" in the arrange page is essentially two things - the track itself, and an environment object assigned to it. Any environment object can be assigned to a track (as long as the "assignable" checkbox on it is checked). And yes, audio channels, software instrument channels and so on are all environment objects.

 

So if you create a MIDI instrument object in the environment, called it "DX7", set the MIDI port and channel and make sure assignable is checked, then go back to the arrange page, control-click on a track, and choose "Reassign track" and you'll get a menu of all your environment objects - so you can just choose your "DX7" instrument there are it will be assigned to your track ready to play.

 

It's a concept a lot of people don't really grok. And the newer functions in LPX, like the "Create Track" dialog box and so on are really shortcuts to exposing this stuff in an easier to understand form.

By the way, I love the DX-7.

 

What a coincidence that you mention the instruments layer. I was about to remove them, because I thought I would never use them again. I found it confusing that I had my midi ports defined twice. Once in the Audio Midi Setup and once in the Instruments layer.

But now I at least now the exact purpose.

Might be worth mentioning: if you use external midi you can control your hardware using the program and bank change menus in the inspector. Not sure if the same is possible with the the instrument plugin. Also not sure if that's a big selling point for you but it is for me.

I have been working with both options today, and at least in my scenario, the External Instrument plugin approach fails to play back sysex automation to the synth.

 

If I instead use an External MIDI track to the same synth, using the same region of sysex automation, it plays back properly and the synth responds.

 

Oddly enough, in both scenarios the MIDI sysex is recorded properly.

 

Is this a bug in my particular system, or do others experience the same?

Marcus, That sounds about right to me, i tend to use Logic automation or basic Midi CC messages for external instrument tracks, whereas External Midi is pure Midi (i.e. old school) so should be a direct transmission of standard Midi data.

 

The external instrument tracks are basically the same as a software instrument track, so i wouldn't expect SysEx messages to playback as they're not really in the scope of a software track.

 

For me the major benefits of using External Instrument enabled tracks is if you have a external synth which has a companion plugin for editing or controlling hardware parameters, you can add the plugin directly on to that track and viola! fully labelled automation in logic, with smart control support.

 

Also, you gain access to the midi fx plugins, such as the chord and arp options, not to mention it's a whole lot easier to add additional effects, such as chorus/delays straight into the channel strip without having to bus/re-route through an additional audio track.

 

The negative of the External Midi tracks, for me at least, is that with certain hardware program change messages seem to get recorded and has, at times, caused my synth to jump to Program 1 on playback, losing the sound i was working on.

Thank you for the reply, y skijumptoes.

Were you able to confirm that sysex does not transmit via the External Instrument? Would be good to know if this is just a problem of my system, or a general Logic limitation.

 

If the latter, then I may try a hybrid approach:

- main track for a synth would be the External Instrument plugin track, which would contain regions with just MIDI notes (and any controllers which can transmit)

- additional tracks, one per parameter, of the External MIDI type, for the sysex automation data

 

This would at least retain the advantages of the External Instrument plugin track: Program Change selection, routing of audio, and ability to process with plugins

Sorry mate, but the last time i had to set it up was for my old Roland Juno, which died after having a bitter shandy spilt all over it and i wasn't told. (A shandy of all things!).

 

From memory there is a setting in the preferences somewhere that allows it through.

 

Just googling i think it's this:-

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13394?locale=en_US

 

"Sysex with midi thru option"

 

I definitely found a way of working with it, as i had a template saved ready to roll, remember those settings are on a per-project basis, if it does work for you.

 

Other than that, i may have done something in the environment window, i had a lot of crazy things going on in there at one point.

 

I must admit, that i was never happy with how it all worked though, and tended to use general midi tracks.... Which then would drive me crazy as they would start sending program message 1 and clear my patches! Oh good fun

I have been doing a lot of experiments lately concerning plugin delay compensation and midi..and the EI plugin definitely handles all of that stuff differently then using an external midi track. The EI plugin appears to send midi immediately, it is not delay compensated for the midi part...but the audio coming back into it..is. It really makes a lot of sense to use the EI plugin for the typical scenario of sending midi notes to an external keyboard and getting the audio back into LPX.

 

For bouncing it, send the output of that track to a BUS and send that BUS to an audio track and do a real time bounce there. Then in order to add some latency compensation to deal with the fact that it takes time to send midi to your external keyboard and get the audio back, put a latency correction plugin onto the EI track and adjust it until everything's in sync.

 

The external midi track, may be better suited for sysex situations, as some have indicated. There is no reason you can't use one of those tracks just for the sysex stuff and use an EI track for the actual music. If you use an external midi track for the music, there is no way to return the audio back without coming back into the inputs of LPX..which could be fine also, but I had better luck getting the timing right using the EI plugin when PDC is at play. The external midi tracks also have the ability to set the delay to match PDC, so that the midi notes will not be sent early... so in a situation where you are not returning the audio back to LPX but returning it maybe to a master physical console along with the other audio from LPX...then you would want the midi events to be delayed along with all the rest of the audio, so an external midi track would be better for that scenario.

To Bounce, i just create a new audio track, set the input channel to my external instrument audio input, mute the track, then record - you don't need to mess around with bussing them as it won't echo when recording if you mute the record enabled channel.

Were you able to confirm that sysex does not transmit via the External Instrument? Would be good to know if this is just a problem of my system, or a general Logic limitation.

 

I can confirm this, External Instrument doesn't know what to do with Sysex info. I use both types External and Midi tracks depending on what I'm doing with the track.

 

And I feel like such a moron for not realizing that I could do a bounce with the External Instrument. A big, dumb moron.

To Bounce, i just create a new audio track, set the input channel to my external instrument audio input, mute the track, then record - you don't need to mess around with bussing them as it won't echo when recording if you mute the record enabled channel.

 

that will work but you're probably introducing more latency

I'm yet to hit any issues yet, i would expect more latency going through a bus than i would direct in to a track hence why i wouldn't bus through like that. Also, i play live directly into audio tracks with most of midi gear now, prevents the needless quantising i *always* do with midi, regardless if it needs it or not. So i'm kinda weighted towards that way of working.

 

If i ever saw any latency i would manually adjust it within the Logic preferences, i guess i'm a bit old school.

 

I can confirm this, External Instrument doesn't know what to do with Sysex info.

 

It's not so much that, it's that audio channel strip objects cannot pass sysex in Logic, so no plugins (including the EI plugin) will ever receive incoming sysex in the first place.

It's not so much that, it's that audio channel strip objects cannot pass sysex in Logic, so no plugins (including the EI plugin) will ever receive incoming sysex in the first place.

 

 

 

Bingo!

 

Up until recently you couldn't even get CC7 & CC10 (Vol/Pan) to pass through the External Instrument plugin, or any plugin (edit: unless the plugin has it's own access to the MIDI inputs).

Were you able to confirm that sysex does not transmit via the External Instrument? Would be good to know if this is just a problem of my system, or a general Logic limitation.

 

I can confirm this, External Instrument doesn't know what to do with Sysex info. I use both types External and Midi tracks depending on what I'm doing with the track.

 

OK, good to know...that should be in the Apple documentation. Actually, a good pro/con comparison of the two methods would be very useful in the docs.