Workflow for using External Instrument plugin & recording ex

Hi guys,

I use the External Instrument plugin a lot with my midi synths. Without a real time bounce in place, it's a bit useless as you need to create an audio track to record the midi anyway, but it saves some space in the arrange before you need to track the synth.

It may sound a bit basic, but i'm looking for the 'proper' protocol for recording the audio in.

For example, should low latency mode always be used when recording?

The reason being, I've noticed that the buffer size that Logic is set to affects the timing of the recorded midi. Like, a lot.

In the first picture attached (sorry - it's decided to load it at the bottom - so it's the last pic!), the Buffer size is 1024 samples (96khz, i'd just been mixing), process buffer range set to Large, and multithreading set to playback tracks. I'm recording a Yamaha Motif connected via USB. I also have Moog Little Phatty II connected via USB and have similar issues.

As you can see, the audio is super early.

When i set the buffer to 64 samples, the audio is more on time, but now it's actually late (see pic 2, in the middle)! In fact each time i record, the midi is ever so slightly off from previous - enough to phase (see pic 3, top pic) - i assume this is simply down to the limitations of midi. But they're all late!

I don't understand this - surely it's latency compensated and everything should be in sync? There are no other plugins in the test project.

Can anyone shed some light on how they can get the recorded midi/audio perfectly in time? Are all DAWs this loose with MIDI?

Are the USB connections to blame here, or perhaps my workflow is incorrect?

I have problems like this at 44.1, too.

Cheers

Ed

Set the output of your Instrument channel strip to a bus and record that bus from the audio track.

Or Bounce in real time.

Hi Eric,

I did discover that, so thanks for your advice. However, I'm still getting stuff out of time, generally a little late. Please see attached pictures.

I've tried it with a Yamaha Motif and my Moog Little Phatty, both use their own USB MIDI.

I currently have a project at 1024 samples, and am using the external instrument plugin. Routing that channel to a bus, then choosing that bus as the input for an audio track. Hitting record. Getting slightly late audio.

Any ideas? My recording delay in Logic is set to 0.

Cheers,

Ed

Further, the first note is often VERY late - much worse than the others. Again, please see picture. This only happens with the Moog, so perhaps it's an issue with that.

In any case, if you zoom in, things aren't aligned. i just tried a brand new project. Any ideas?

Routing that channel to a bus, then choosing that bus as the input for an audio track. Hitting record. Getting slightly late audio.

 

... My recording delay in Logic is set to 0.

When you record through a bus, the Recording Delay is not used by Logic. In fact Logic doesn't do any Recording Latency Compensation (RLC) at all when you record from a bus.

The timing of the MIDI is crucial when recording through a bus. It's the MIDI timing that determines your audio timing in new recordings. IOW, you have full control over audio latency compensation by varying the MIDI timing with region/track delays.

Yes, I experimented with it and realise that that the Recording Delay has no effect at all.

Can you advise on the best workflow for compensating for the latency?

Also: would the latency be the same across the board, or would different external midi instruments have a different latency? Once set, would the latency need changing?

It's confusing because I've read that people use the same workflow (assign to bus, record off the bus) and the audio is 'spot on'.

Cheers,

Ed

Just to be sure, are you (software) monitoring through the External Instrument plugin?

Or are you just using it for MIDI and recording the synth's audio? IOW, you're direct/mixer monitoring??

Also, are there any latency inducing plugins on the External Instrument track itself?

Yes, I'm monitoring through the External Instrument plugin, although 'software monitoring' is not turned on.

No plugins on the external instrument track itself, nor the aux or the track i'm recording to.

I've done some experiments on a new test project, with the midi delay, and if i set a delay of around -2.8ms on the midi track for the Yamaha Motif, the sounds seem to line up better. There is some variation that is normal with MIDI, but it's better. I tried a bunch of different percussive sounds and this seemed like the best compromise.

Is it normal to have to use some delay with the External Instrument - is everyone else doing the same?

This is at 96KHz, which is where i usually work. At 44.1, 3.2ms seems to work better, for some reason. 

I've also found that the first note of any recording passage is a little looser than the rest. In the case of the Moog, it's MUCH looser!

I've spent a few days re-tracking a bunch of midi from keyboards and was worried that I'd have to retrack everything. Hopefully setting a delay on the audio tracks of -3 ticks (2.8ms), it should give the same result without having to re-record everything.

I haven't experimented with the Moog yet.

Cheers for any light you can shed!

Ed

I don't think there's anything you're doing wrong. As Eric stated, record through a bus when software monitoring with or without the External Instrument plugin. Provided that the timing of your MIDI keyboard playing or pre-recorded MIDI region results in the synth's audio being output at the same time as Logic's metronome or other quantised track i.e. everything is in sync with Logic's grid in your speakers, then recording through a bus will result in sample accurate recording of the software monitored sound source. IOW, when you play back the new audio recording it will sound exactly the same as it did during recording, to the sample.

^ Summary: get everything in sync in your speakers and record through a bus, that's all you really need to remember when software monitoring an external source.

The relative timing of the synth's recorded MIDI note relative to the recorded audio hit triggered by that MIDI note is not anywhere near as accurate, as you've found out. As I stated in this post on GS, I've witnessed a misalignment (late MIDI) when simultaneously recording a synth's MIDI and the audio triggered by that MIDI, but that was whilst direct monitoring with Local Control on, so Logic wasn't being used as a MIDI Thru/router, it was just recording the synth's MIDI and corresponding audio hits.

I just don't think Logic lines the two up accurately enough. I've haven't yet done the same MIDI+audio test with the External Instrument plugin and software monitoring. I should also state that the timing of MIDI recordings is my weakest area of knowledge. Up to now I've been concentrating on MIDI & audio timing for monitoring purposes (i.e. output alignment), audio PDC, and also audio recording alignment. So, I've only recently started testing MIDI recording.

Just one thing, if you want a dry synth recording, feed the bus from an aux instead of the 'Send' on the External Instrument track. Eric's method is more of a 'track bounce', and any plugins on an aux or output don't get included in that 'track bounce', just the plugins on the External Instrument track.