A return to Logic

So I left Logic during version 9 to give Ableton Live a try. I really liked the smart design choices in Ableton Live and ease of use, but I found that I still write in more of a linear fashion. Even though Ableton has the ability to write in a linear mode, i also noticed that the audio quality of what was being recorded into Ableton wasn't as good as Logic Pro. Even with all the settings the same, LP still sounded better.

But the real reason for my post is this: I have A LOT of external MIDI synths. Ableton allows really really easy routing, allowing you to decide which MIDI IN channel will transmit to which MIDI OUT channel. It let's you turn off the MIDI THRU per channel, so to avoid any MIDI loop/feedback without having to turn every one of your synths' local control to the off position.

None of this seems possible with LPX. I've tried to write a MIDI track from an external synth and I get the thru loop feedback issue. Ableton Live treats it like Input Monitoring and gives you a toggle switch right on the channel strip. Easy. LPX has me looking through preferences, specifying which channel has THRU issues. And even then it doesn't work.

Solo? Mute? Doesn't seem to work on MIDI tracks either. Oh, and when I'm playing an external synth using Ableton Live, I can just pull down the MIDI IN select window and it will show activity on the given channel. So I never have to memorize which synth goes to which MIDI port. It's funny that Ableton is so much more LOGICAL than Logic.

Anyway, I'm not here to slam LPX, I'm trying to give it a good 2nd chance, I just find myself getting frustrated when all I want to do is record MIDI from one of my external synths onto a MIDI track, reverse back to start, hit play and hear back what I recorded. That seems like a big request, unless I'm missing something.

None of this seems possible with LPX.

In Logic you can control up to 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels: LPX Control Multiple Instruments on Different MIDI Channels

Yeah, that's pretty cool, but I just want to walk up to my Jupiter 6 and create a MIDI track, figure out which MIDI port it is connected to on one of my MOTU MIDITimepeices, Hit record and record it. Without it causing a MIDI loop. You know. Like a proper MIDI Sequencer...

I'm going to research using Logic and Ableton at the same time. Using Logic for Audio Recording and Ableton Live for MIDI Recording.

Yeah, that's pretty cool, but I just want to walk up to my Jupiter 6 and create a MIDI track, figure out which MIDI port it is connected to on one of my MOTU MIDITimepeices, Hit record and record it. Without it causing a MIDI loop. You know. Like a proper MIDI Sequencer...

If that's all you want then it's even easier to do than you think: no need to figure out what port your Jupiter 6 is connected to. Once the Jupiter is properly set up, you just create an External MIDI track, selecting the Jupiter 6 as the destination, and R-enabling the track. Now you can play any MIDI Controller connected to your Mac (including the Jupiter 6) and it will control the Jupiter 6.

None of this seems possible with LPX.

In Logic you can control up to 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels: LPX Control Multiple Instruments on Different MIDI Channels

Dave, sounds like you are oversimplifying Logic's capability. Might have been more appropriate to add a 'per port' to that spec. That Logic handles 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port and you can have multiple midi ports.

GOLDEN RULE with external gear (and I don't think it's Logic specific in anyway, it's valid as well for instance for Cubase, with is a MIDI marvel I used for numerous years) :

Make sure your external MIDI gear is set (and stays set) to LOCAL OFF. This setting (or whatever name it takes in each gear) is the one that disconnects the synths keyboard from the sound generator. Set this way, midi events do not go direct from the keyboard to the sound generator, while they go (as they should) from the keyboard to your Mac to Logic (which thrus them, and records them anytime you want) to the sound generator module of you synth.

If you keep LOCAL ON, then all notes are doubled because the generator receives each note twice, once from the Mac (as it should) and once direct from its own keyboard.

This is an external gear setting (read each gear's manual toi see how to set it), not any setting to implement in Logic (or on your Mac).

Dave, sounds like you are oversimplifying Logic's capability. Might have been more appropriate to add a 'per port' to that spec. That Logic handles 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port and you can have multiple midi ports.

He knows this. He also knows, like anyone who's been using Logic in this context for a long time, there is a fundamental design bottleneck that effectively strips the port information as the MIDI is routed to the sequencer, meaning David is entirely correct - it's one port only, so you can record up to 16 instruments on 16 channels simulatenously *in one go*.

Of course, it doesn't matter which incoming port those instruments come in on, but you cn only do max 16 independent ones *simultaneously*.

Thank you Arnaud. That golden rule is the reason I prefer ableton live. You don't need to turn off the local keyboard on each synth. You just turn off the input monitoring on the channel strip. Just like you would with an audio track.

You see, I have less and less time these days to sit in front of my beloved synths and noodle, like I used to. Often I have 15-30 minutes before I have to run off and take care of life. Often I just like to turn a synth on and start playing, without starting up the computer, turning on logic, waiting for it to startup, assigning the tracks... I just want to play, create sounds & patches and patterns... But now I have to turn it on, go inton whatever mode this synth or that synth has to turn local back on. It disrupts the creative flow. Ableton Live easily and thoughtfully designed it so you don't have to do this. As well as let you decide which MIDI input will control which MIDI output. It's so obvious and easy that I was sure that logic x and every other DAW had figured this out and after slapping themselves on the forehead, added this feature so that disconnecting local control on your synth was no longer a requirement to stop the MIDI thru loop.

Anyway since this is not the case I'm now trying to figure out if I can run both apps together, using ableton live as my MIDI sequencer and Logic Pro X as my audio DAW. If anyone has done this, I'd love to hear from you.

Dual use of Live and LPX would involve the IAC thingy I would assume, but I never tried.

If it's simply disabling MIDI thru in LPX (like disabling input mponitoing for an audio track) you're looking for, disarming a record-enabled track does it. You have less routing options than in Live apparently, but at least you have that.

You might want to further check this:

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13394?locale=en_US

[Edit] Besides, if in your case you have a large number of keyboards, why not simply dedicating one (and that one alone) as being the master keyboard when you use LPX? On that one and that one alone (possibly the one you least often will use on a standalone basis) you would turn LOCAL OFF, and you can leave that setting on on the whole rest of your gear. This way you don't even have to bother turning midi thru on or off in LPX. When in Logic, you use your gear as sound modules anyway, only one keyboard is needed as a master keyboard (and you d'ont care about their LOCAL ON or OFF so long as you don't play on their own keyboard), but if you don't turn your Mac and Logic on you can still play all of your gear (except your dedicated master keyboard) on a standalone basis when you want to have some quick fun.

I've tried disarming the record button but it doesn't seem to work. Nor does mute or solo for that matter.

Thank you for the suggestion about using one dedicated keyboard. The reason I don't want to do that is the reason I have so many boards in the first place; their knobs and sliders at my fingertips that I will often reach up to adjust or sometimes record the movement of onto a track. The ability to do that won't be there if I'm just playing one dedicated board while the synth sits on the other side of the room. That makes them more than just sound sources for me. Sorry, if I'm a bit old fashioned in this regard and again, yours is a great suggestion.

I'll try and figure out why disarming the Record button isn't stopping the MIDI loop.

Dave, sounds like you are oversimplifying Logic's capability. Might have been more appropriate to add a 'per port' to that spec. That Logic handles 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port and you can have multiple midi ports.

 

He knows this. He also knows, like anyone who's been using Logic in this context for a long time, there is a fundamental design bottleneck that effectively strips the port information as the MIDI is routed to the sequencer, meaning David is entirely correct - it's one port only, so you can record up to 16 instruments on 16 channels simulatenously *in one go*.

 

Of course, it doesn't matter which incoming port those instruments come in on, but you cn only do max 16 independent ones *simultaneously*.

I do not desire to take this thread off track but, you have missed my point entirely because-

1) In just about every scenario I can think of, if you are trying to get 16 instruments on 16 channels into logic, it's far simpler to just import the MIDI.

2) If you are attempting to max out 16 channels per port on several ports, I can probably point out some very serious arranging issues.

What you can do is- as the OP desires to do

(all I want to do is record MIDI from one of my external synths onto a MIDI track, reverse back to start, hit play and hear back what I recorded.)

Finally OP,

+1 the suggestions on turning off the local on/off. I know you said that Ableton has the capability to do that. You are correct that Logic does not have a parameter available to interupt the MIDI loop. You may be able to set up Logic's environment so that you can interupt the loop. Others can speak to that. My external synths have editor software that I run alongside of Logic that afford me easy access to the 'local on/off' parameter.

1) In just about every scenario I can think of, if you are trying to get 16 instruments on 16 channels into logic, it's far simpler to just import the MIDI.

So, some people want to have multiple instruments, often transmitting on multiple channels, and recorded live to individual tracks. This is simple in other DAWs, but because of Logic's long-time bottleneck, is very limited in Logic.

2) If you are attempting to max out 16 channels per port on several ports, I can probably point out some very serious arranging issues.

See above. Not the point.

What you can do is- as the OP desires to do

(all I want to do is record MIDI from one of my external synths onto a MIDI track, reverse back to start, hit play and hear back what I recorded.)

is set up multiple ports (depending on you hardware) and play live through more than one synth using more than one port, having Logic record.

Sure.

You may be able to set up Logic's environment so that you can interupt the loop. Others can speak to that.

Yes, this is easy.

Dave, sounds like you are oversimplifying Logic's capability. Might have been more appropriate to add a 'per port' to that spec. That Logic handles 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port and you can have multiple midi ports.

No, I was stating Logic's capability exactly. Logic can not handle controlling 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port simultaneously with MIDI controllers. The maximum it can handle is 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels.

Logic can not handle controlling 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port simultaneously with MIDI controllers. The maximum it can handle is 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels.

Caveat is of course, if you don't go through the sequencer object, you *can* cable up instruments directly in the environment and avoid this limitation, and control more than that from MIDI input ports independently. But it makes recording a little tricky - sooner of later, you have to go through the sequencer object, at which point your port information is thrown away.

Like I say, it's workarounds all the way down...

Logic can not handle controlling 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port simultaneously with MIDI controllers. The maximum it can handle is 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels.

 

Caveat is of course, if you don't go through the sequencer object, you *can* cable up instruments directly in the environment and avoid this limitation. But it makes recording a little tricky - sooner of later, you have to go througuh the sequencer object, at which point your port information is thrown away.

Right, we're assuming the need to record the MIDI info here... from the OP's original question:

all I want to do is record MIDI

2) If you are attempting to max out 16 channels per port on several ports, I can probably point out some very serious arranging issues.

Dude, why do you have to give off such a "master" telling the "servant" how it is aura?

You've never heard the man's music, even people that are geniuses at synth arrangement are modest a lot of the time and don't

talk "at" people, but talk to them.

And for some terrible reason, most of the musicians I meet that have this type of insecurity which makes them talk like this to people

or Mac "evangelists" . Very scary.

We're all in love with each other these days, folks. Let's keep it that way...

I always assumed the multiple MIDI channel per port is used most commonly in multi timbral synths. In my case, I have 3 MOTU MIDITimepieces so all of my gear has direct in's and outs unless they are modules. Some ARE multitimbral and that's when I start assigning different MIDI channels per port.

It's quite a bit of spaghetti going on back there, which is why I yearn for a sequencer built for External MIDI gear I suppose.

We're all in love with each other these days, folks. Let's keep it that way...

That's a good premise. I like it.

I always assumed the multiple MIDI channel per port is used most commonly in multi timbral synths. In my case, I have 3 MOTU MIDITimepieces so all of my gear has direct in's and outs unless they are modules. Some ARE multitimbral and that's when I start assigning different MIDI channels per port.

It's quite a bit of spaghetti going on back there, which is why I yearn for a sequencer built for External MIDI gear I suppose.

Alright, NONE of this should be an issue though. Can you please state once again what exactly you're trying to do that is causing you such headache? If what you're trying is to have dozens of external synths, some multi-timbral, some mono-timbral, connected to your Mac and accessible from Logic, so you can have a song with hundreds of MIDI tracks that trigger all those synths, that's all VERY EASY to do in Logic.

If, on the other hand, you're trying to have more than 16 MIDI Controllers triggering different instruments at the same time while recording them, for example 17 different people playing 17 MIDI Controller keyboards and trying to record 17 different instruments in Logic, then that's not possible in Logic.

David, in a nutshell, the first one. But without turning off Local Control on each of my synths or without controlling them from a Master Keyboard.

Simply put: Hey! I'm didling around on my PRO 2 and an Idea comes to mind. I turn on logic. I create a MIDI track. I record the MIDI track FROM the Pro2. I hit stop. I rewind. I hit play. It plays back INTO the Pro2. It doesn't create a MIDI thru loop. It works. Sounds simple.

But it's not happening. MIDI thru loop keeps rearing it's ugly head.

There are 3 ways to disable Midi Thru....(that I know of...)

1/ Option #1

Affects only 1 port - All data for this port should and will have midi thru disabled

2/ Option #2 - Affect all tracks for simultaneous multi-track input.

This requires use of one track assigned to no output with auto demix enabled and all tracks record enabled and set to the proper channels.

3/ Option #3 - small environment modification

A multi is connected to a fader which is connected to a multi

The first multi is for the track header assignment, the fader disables midi thru, and the last multi connect to the port.

Option #1 is fine for one keyboard only.

Option #2 will disable all midi thru for all keyboards ( no exception )

Option #3 you can assign each to track to either the first multi or the second in the chain, hence allowing individual control over which tracks have midi thru disabled and which do not.

Let's start with option #1

In project->Midi->General Tab in the Instrument without Midi thru function select the port connected to or identifying the Pro 2.

Don't select any with a channel next to it, but rather just the one with the name..... see example below.

After you select it. You may need to record enable the track, play a note, turn record enable off, then back on again. Just to be sure the setting is live -

With the track highlighted and record enabled - play your Pro and Midi should not be sent from Logic to the Pro2 via thru. If that works, record a track - hopefully same results.

If that doesn't work for some reason or you want to do more than one instrument at the same time - we can go to option 2 or 3....

for live playback or recording, make sure that the track with the Pro2 is highlighted - If you highlight any other track it will not work.

Edit: one more thing... make sure the track's midi channel is set to "ALL", if it is set to a specific channel then you will have to select the same channel in the project preferences dropdown i.e Pro2 4 ( if the track channel is set to 4). I would just select the Port without a midi channel and make sure the track is set to all.

I have reconfirmed that all 3 ways do in fact disable midi thru.

David, in a nutshell, the first one. But without turning off Local Control on each of my synths or without controlling them from a Master Keyboard.

Without turning Local off on your synths, you can expect MIDI feedback loops since you're sending the same MIDI events twice (once from the keyboard, the other time through Logic).

WOW!!!! volovicg what a fantastic, insightful and clear response! I can't thank you enough! This seems to do the trick. Although I'm finding that I am more intrigued with Option #2 - eliminating all MIDI thru. The only need I have for MIDI thru is to control my external rack modules and I can route MIDI to them through MOTU's Clockworks that accompanies the MIDI Timepieces.

If it's not too much to ask, when you have a moment, I'd love to see how to make Option#2 happen.

Thanks again!

Dave, sounds like you are oversimplifying Logic's capability. Might have been more appropriate to add a 'per port' to that spec. That Logic handles 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port and you can have multiple midi ports.

No, I was stating Logic's capability exactly. Logic can not handle controlling 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels per port simultaneously with MIDI controllers. The maximum it can handle is 16 different instruments on 16 different MIDI channels.

As previously stated, I did not want to take this off topic. The OP (Shout out alwaysuptil1; remember you from the Motifator site) wants to record live MIDI keyboards. You and des99 have placed emphasis on my quoting you regarding 16 instruments 16 MIDI tracks and totally ingored the per port which is my emphasis. There may be some conceivable instance in which a single musician is attempting to recording 16 live instruments and MIDI channels, I can't think of it. There aren't enough hands. And, if the MIDI is already recorded, despite the brush off from des99, it is easier to import it.

I summarized my point already but, It is possible to record multiple ports and thereby multiple MIDI keyboards, depending on your hardware limitations- USB ports, MIDI Hubs, etc., I have done it. The issue for us external MIDI track recorders is that dreaded local on/off and as he restated, that is the main concern of the OP.

volovicg- thanks for reminding me of option#2. I haven't used that since Logic 8. I totally forgot about it. I have since moved to primarily using sotware instruments but, I still have old sessions with that dummy track (no output).

There may be some conceivable instance in which a single musician is attempting to recording 16 live instruments and MIDI channels, I can't think of it.

Well, what you can/can't think of, and reality, aren't necessarily the same thing!

I've had *plenty* of conversations about this in the years of being online regarding Logic (since Logic 1.x) and there are indeed many people who have a multi-keyboard/controller setup and the the 16 simultaneous bottleneck is a very real issue for them.

There aren't enough hands. And, if the MIDI is already recorded, despite the brush off from des99, it is easier to import it.

Many people have many MIDI devices running live they want to record, generating sequences, arpeggiators, and switching from keyboard, layering multiple keyboard's sound and instruments during performances. Whether you *believe* it or not, the problem is real, but it *seems* less of a problem as more people are DAW-centric these days, and running a lot of instruments in the box - but there still are people who work this way.

I summarized my point already but, It is possible to record multiple ports and thereby multiple MIDI keyboards, depending on your hardware limitations- USB ports, MIDI Hubs, etc., I have done it.

Yes. MIDI information will come in from any port, absolutely. And most of the time, it doesn't matter which port data is coming from, particularly if you are only recording one thing at a time.

But if you want to see the issue, for example, have two different keyboards, both transmitting on MIDI channel 1 (lets say, two DX7 MK1's), both connected on a different MIDI interface port.

You can't record them both independently, simultaneously, unless you do some fiddling with environment channel remapping, because by the time the MIDI data hits the sequence, it just sees MIDI events on Channel 1, and it has no way of knowing *which* port a particular Channel 1 event came from anymore.

So yes, this design-limitation in Logic, in simple terms, means you can't record two original DX7 parts at once. That's about the minimum config you need to hit this problem - it's not just people that have 30 keyboards live and want to record fiddling on any of them during an extended performance.

Like I say, Logic has tools to help here, as long as you don't need to record more the 16 channels worth of data at once. And if you do, it's a problem, albeit one that doesn't affect you personally (or me, I don't have that much MIDI hardware these days either).

It's not a problem for you, or I, but it *is* a problem for *some*.

Alrighty now kids..... It's all about helping each other out...

Glad you got option #1 working - so now you have one way to disable Midi thru for a single port or channel....

Let's discuss the details re: Option #2 per the OP requests...

This will disable Midi Thru for all record enabled tracks ( Live or during a recording)

I will explain a generic setup and methodology where you can have multiple Midi devices ( up to 16 of them) connected to logic with Midi thru disabled on all of them ( without any environment changes)..... For this example - Let's just say we have 3 external Keyboards (Korg, Pro2, Yamaha) for this example - (you can however use up to 16 midi channels across multiple ports)

1/ You would create 4 tracks

2/ The first track should be reassigned to no output ( RT click track header - select no output).

3/ The other three tracks should be set to their respective ports and each have their own midi channel....(in the track inspector)

( Track #2 = Korg, Port should be the port the korg is and channel should be 1) ( both the track inspector channel and the Korg itself).

Track #3 = Pro 2, Port should be the port the Pro2 is and channel should be 2) ""

Track #4 = Yamaha, Port should be the port the Yamaha is on and channel should be 3) """

So now at this point you have one track assigned "no outpu"t and 3 tracks assigned to their respective ports each with a different midi channels ( the actually channels you pick don't matter, just so they are all different and the device matches the track inspector parameters).

In project settings ->recording set - Auto demix by channel if multitrack recording ( please enable this feature).

Now record enable all three tracks and...... VERY IMPORTANT... Highlight the first track ( the no output one).

(at this point you can save this as template - so in the future when your creativity requires immediate gratification you can just load from the template, press record and go..... ( just like you wanted)...

At this point your tracks should be working in LIVE mode - if you press ta key on the Korg you should hear it and see the meters for track 2, same for the pro and yamaha ( hear each and on their respective tracks).YOU MUST ALWAYS BE SURE THE "ON NO OUTPUT" Track is the one which is highlighted for live play or recording... there is where there is no midi thru - if you highlight one of the other tracks and it is record enabled - midi thru will occur again.... until you go back and highlight the no output track.

remember all midi ( regardless of the source) arrives into logic via the highlighted track......

If you record... all three keyboards should play their respective sounds, however you will see the track record only on the first track. When you press stop - regions will be created on the remaining 3 tracks with their respective associated midi data.

No midi thru will occur and no issue with note doubling or infinite midi loops. And you can just play back what you recorded and each of the external synths will play what was recorded.

Please try this and let us know if it solved your problem. I can upload a video showing and validating how this works if you like ( should you have difficulty).

Greg V.