How do you cope with AU plugin automation latency?

I can't get AU effect plugins to be automated on time. There is always some latency going on. While the volume fader seems to be automated down to sample level every single AU plugin has some sort of lag which leads to clicks and zaps when automated "hard". For example the closing and opening of the cutoff frequency of Logic's own AutoFilter in an EDM fashion. The sudden opening of a fully closed filter is always too late. How do you handle critical timing AU plugin automation?

Choose Logic Pro X > Preferences > Audio > General, and make sure Sample Accurate Automation is set to Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters? 

Sample Accurate Automation is activated for everything of course.

 

Look at this screenshot. I did the same automation first with the Gain plugin, then with the volume fader. I guess that hey have a different resolution, that's why the tail is so different (that doesn't bother me). Nevertheless, the first beats on the bars shouldn't have "fade ins" as you can clearly see even in this zoom range in the bounced Gain plugin track. This clearly unusable huge latency happens with every AU parameter I automate (at least the ones I tried including UAD plugins). I am wondering what the "sample accurate" automation for plug-in parameters really mean then? All automation preferences are set to the factory standards by the way.

As said I don't care about resolution but I care about accuracy.

 

http://i68.tinypic.com/2ca4k1.jpg

Choose Logic Pro X > Preferences > Audio > General, and make sure Sample Accurate Automation is set to Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters? 

That doesn't help when 3rd party plugins are involved. If you only work with stock plugins, it (should) work(s). At least that's what Logic says. I think I did a test where multiple busses were involved and also then Logic plugins weren't sample accurate. 

This is a known (very annoying) issue. And depending on the amount of plugins the delay gets even worse. I had sessions with up to a 16th of a delay on the automation. 

 

I usually manually "delay" the points by listening. Or I change the arrangement, so that it doesn't matter. Worst case: I have to bounce the tracks, and then apply the automation on the "stem" (which can be awful when you want to change the arrangement later). Worst case of worst case: Try to work only with stock plugins on the stem. 

Sample Accurate Automation is activated for everything of course.

 

Look at this screenshot. I did the same automation first with the Gain plugin, then with the volume fader. I guess that hey have a different resolution, that's why the tail is so different (that doesn't bother me). Nevertheless, the first beats on the bars shouldn't have "fade ins" as you can clearly see even in this zoom range in the bounced Gain plugin track. This clearly unusable huge latency happens with every AU parameter I automate (at least the ones I tried including UAD plugins). I am wondering what the "sample accurate" automation for plug-in parameters really mean then? All automation preferences are set to the factory standards by the way.

As said I don't care about resolution but I care about accuracy.

 

http://i68.tinypic.com/2ca4k1.jpg

Hm. Not a single thing acting as a VCA in the digital domain should be sample accurate, becasue in your case ( a jump ) it would produce a click. what I see here on this screen shot is the following:

a) different scale of both faders

b) gain plugin does start increasing level in the same spot as ch fader does. (as far as I can see), but it has a much longer interpolation time.

this by itself doesn't prove anything, since there are no interpolation times specified in the documentation.

source: I used to teach basic DSP and audio app prototyping in Max

Hm. Not a single thing acting as a VCA in the digital domain should be sample accurate, becasue in your case ( a jump ) it would produce a click. what I see here on this screen shot is the following:

a) different scale of both faders

b) gain plugin does start increasing level in the same spot as ch fader does. (as far as I can see), but it has a much longer interpolation time.

this by itself doesn't prove anything, since there are no interpolation times specified in the documentation.

source: I used to teach basic DSP and audio app prototyping in Max

Yes, that's clear. The parameter must and will have at least some minimal ramp up. 

The issue is, that this ramp up/down doesn't happen where it should be. And I'm not talking here about a couple of samples of latency. No, it can be delayed up to a 16th, or even more. And that is far from accurate. 

 

Logic has to vastly improve this behaviour. There is no doubt about that. Although I must admit, that in general (over all users around the world), such steep accurate automation is not needed very often. 

Nevertheless it happens that I have to be careful even with "normal" (not steep ramps) automation. For instance: I see the waveform. There is the breath of the vocal, I want to take down in volume. Of course I set the automation points just before and after it. But the automation so much delayed, that you hear the breath, but not the word following it. Very annoying. 

Yes, that's clear. The parameter must and will have at least some minimal ramp up. 

The issue is, that this ramp up/down doesn't happen where it should be. And I'm not talking here about a couple of samples of latency. No, it can be delayed up to a 16th, or even more. And that is far from accurate. 

 

Logic has to vastly improve this behaviour. There is no doubt about that. Although I must admit, that in general (over all users around the world), such steep accurate automation is not needed very often. 

Nevertheless it happens that I have to be careful even with "normal" (not steep ramps) automation. For instance: I see the waveform. There is the breath of the vocal, I want to take down in volume. Of course I set the automation points just before and after it. But the automation so much delayed, that you hear the breath, but not the word following it. Very annoying. 

no, what gain exhibits its not issues with automation, but with gain plugin itself. Can you replicate it? Because since I enabled sample accurate automation, its been as accurate as i am when i draw it. The only automation that throws logic off is bypass of a channel strip insert (because it changes over all latency). Soft bypasses (such as on fabfilter plugins) are fine.

@stardustmedia

Thanks for your reply. I am already using the bouncing method as I don't know any other way to accomplish a time accurate automation. All other "workarounds" are too unstable if anything changes during arrangement / mixing (buffer size, more latency heavy third party plugins and so on).

I especially used stock plugins (here: gain plugin) to show that they aren't compensated or at least are not in time (whatever the real cause is). As initially said this also happens with the cutoff frequency of Logic's own AutoFilter for example. So I like to believe that this kind of "hard" automation doesn't work with any Logic plugin. My personal experience is that only the volume fader as well as the pan knob are fully sample accurate (in view of automation).

@ploki

I am always interested in technical backgrounds to understand things better. However from a viewpoint as a mixing engineer I don't really care - I just need the tools to be on time. What I don't get is that the volume fader, which clearly comes "after" all latency heavy plugin, is fully compensated and sample accurate on time. So technically it seems to be possible even more because Apple alone makes the rules for AU. I experienced the same inaccurate automation in Cubase and Studio One by the way (here even the volume faders are not sample accurate and highly buffer depended). Cubase showed at least the best timing with third party plugins (less latency). However Ableton Live has a fully sample accurate automation of the volume fader as well as the stock plugins(!) (not so with third party AU/VST plugins though).

Not sure if I understand what you meant... 

 

If I only use Logic stock plugins (haven't tested all combinations, especially with latency introducing plugins) the automation is (quite) accurate. I did several different tests, in simple situations it worked. 

 

But when using latency introducing plugins (especially 3rd party plugins), or when using complexe routing, the accuracy decreases significantly. 

 

It's no use, when just one plugin automation in a channel strip without routing is accurate. That's not a real world situation, at least not in my projects. 

 

There are a lot of threads in different forums that describe this issue in detail. I'd like to see sample accurate automation, not matter what. As I wrote: I had delays up to or more than a 16th on automation. 

 

It'd be ok within a certain amount of ms, but not like 16th

I couldn't cope.

 

It's the one reason I have taken a break from Logic, exploring Studio One and Pro Tools, for now anyhow.

Automation is a big deal so the day this is resolved - that's another issue.

Logic's automation is broken as far as timing is concerned, when one uses ANY effects with ANY latency on ANY instrument or audio track.

I can reproduce it 100% of the time for the last 4 years and then some.

Just add a linear phase EQ somewhere.. then put a normal zero latency gain plugin after or before it. Automate the gain. It will be out of time by the latency of the EQ plugin in the same signal path (or whatever the largest combined plugin latency on that track or instrument is).

The only workaround is to use zero latency plugins, or mirror tracks with a bus, where everything is automated on time, even the latent effects themselves.

 

This is the main reason why i left Logic and went to pro tools. That, and the fact that i was getting tired of writing every second AU manufacturer to tell them to code their au buffer reset properly so i could actually start songs at bar 1.1.1.1.

 

My 1000's of logic songs all still start at bar 5 so i can clear the fx buffer of verbs and delays. Cubase/PT do not suffer from this issue.. however, as devs like fab filter and many others inc apple have proven, if they follow apple's guidelines to send the reset message on playback to flush the cache or whatever it is, there is zero issue. It's the devs and laziness i blame on that one, not apple.. as logic is the major target of the au format, and apple have been telling coders this for a decade and many just won't do it.

 

I found a new latency issue today.... I was very disappointed to find that pro tools native does not do any sort of delay compensation on sidechains, so i was curious and testing logic in that regard. On the track with the sidechain plugin ie the track being "fed", not the feeder, if you place a latent plugin after the plugin doing the side chaining, the sidechaining goes out by the amount of the latent plugin. Yep.

Unlike pro tools though, logic thinks it is compensating, so i can't work around it. Pro tools doesn't even try so i just put in the nudge value of the mixer delay display.. with logic, trying to match the latencies is all but impossible.

Workaround? Send the side chained signal to a bus and put any latent effects on the bus instead. Same as automation workaround. before you know it, you have 2 tracks for every single track or a folder for every track just to keep automation and sidechaining on time LOL.

 

I miss Logic, and i really hope apple get it together.. i have reported all these bugs quarterly and regularly to no avail.

Oh, the best automation setting i have found, for general "in time" plugin automation, is a -9 ticks offset.. i also keep the process buffer on small. This seems to work for me to have bang on automation when I am automating plugins without delay, or automating plugins without other plugins that have delay around them.

 

UAD is a nightmare with logic.. if it wasn't for UAD and using it for almost everything, i'd not have left. But i simply can not do any instr or track automation on the grid, of ANY plugin, when using any uad plugin in the same strip.. I was just sick and tired of it. I want my automation to happen where it's drawn.

 

So the OP is actually correct that logic automation is no good.

 

I have a topic about it at gearslutz with continual updates of major versions and changes. not sure if i am allowed to link to that here?

 

cheers

I couldn't cope.

 

It's the one reason I have taken a break from Logic, exploring Studio One and Pro Tools, for now anyhow.

Automation is a big deal so the day this is resolved - that's another issue.

 

Studio one's automation timing has been completely broken with the new hybrid engine. It is so bad, it is now the worst of the lot.

 

I can not believe they did not test this

 

when studio one used an "all the time" , "live", engine, at whatever the one chosen buffersize was, automation, even with tons of latent plugins everywhere, was literally bang on. even better than cubase's.

Now, in 3.5.2, it's finished.

Forget that idea, believe me.

 

People will literally be loading all their old projects and automation will be out of time absolutely everywhere. I tested about 30 plugins, S1's own plugins, in a variety of audio path configs.

 

The tightest automation i have been able to find overall, is PT 12 and Cubase 9. (on the mac side of things I mean).

There is the breath of the vocal, I want to take down in volume. Of course I set the automation points just before and after it. But the automation so much delayed, that you hear the breath, but not the word following it. Very annoying. 

Exactly why I gave up on Logic.

 

The tightest automation i have been able to find overall, is PT 12 and Cubase 9. (on the mac side of things I mean).

Left Logic and this forum 3 yrs ago and saw this comment today for the first time.

Funny enough I abandoned Studio One for several reasons and I am mainly using PT and Cubase currently so I guess you were right!

There is the breath of the vocal, I want to take down in volume. Of course I set the automation points just before and after it. But the automation so much delayed, that you hear the breath, but not the word following it. Very annoying. 

Exactly why I gave up on Logic.

 

The tightest automation i have been able to find overall, is PT 12 and Cubase 9. (on the mac side of things I mean).

Left Logic and this forum 3 yrs ago and saw this comment today for the first time.

Funny enough I abandoned Studio One for several reasons and I am mainly using PT and Cubase currently so I guess you were right!

 

you don't use logic, and you're responding to a post from 3 years ago... because? anyway, lots of pros use logic, and all is well (or well enough). not sure why u felt u needed to stop by and post....

...well, he did say he was experiencing a delay issue...hth.../s~

you don't use logic, and you're responding to a post from 3 years ago... because? anyway, lots of pros use logic, and all is well (or well enough). not sure why u felt u needed to stop by and post....

 

Yes, because:

A) I still have loads of old songs that I have to access in Logic when they get cut by artists and might need a production refresh, therefore I have kept my forum login if I should need it. There are lots of really competent people here to ask if problems should arise.

B) I didn't see until now someone had replied so I thought it would be courteous to answer the comment, even if it was 3 yrs ago.

 

The automation problem wasn't the only issue I experienced, it was just one of many. For instance, I am using UAD and at the time Logic didn't latency compensate correctly when you used buses and UAD plugins and more. It might be corrected now but it doesn't matter to me anymore. Automation was just the straw that broke the camels back.

 

Logic has lots of great features and I am well aware that there are lots of pros working with Logic. It's just that exact automation and latency compensation was more important to me than the sound/plugin/feature content in Logic so I simply switched to daws that performed better in that area.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Muuseec

you don't use logic, and you're responding to a post from 3 years ago... because? anyway, lots of pros use logic, and all is well (or well enough). not sure why u felt u needed to stop by and post....

 

Yes, because:

A) I still have loads of old songs that I have to access in Logic when they get cut and might need a production refresh, therefore I have kept my forum login if I should need it. There are lots of really competent people here to ask if problems should arise.

B) I didn't see until now someone had replied so I thought it would be courteous to answer the comment, even if it was 3 yrs ago.

 

Logic has lots of great features and I am well aware that there are lots of pros working with Logic. It's just that exact automation was more important to me than the sound/plugin/feature content in Logic so I simply switched to daws that performed better in that area.

 

i live & die by automation, and am not having any problems (i do draw a lot of it in). and, logic is not the same as it was 3 years ago, so your response to an older version has no real relevance to what happens in the present. anyway, going back to work... in logic...

i live & die by automation, and am not having any problems (i do draw a lot of it in). and, logic is not the same as it was 3 years ago, so your response to an older version has no real relevance to what happens in the present. anyway, going back to work... in logic...

 

Sure.

But I didn't comment on the latest version and I am not going back.

I tried the latest version and the bugs were strong with this one.

i live & die by automation, and am not having any problems (i do draw a lot of it in). and, logic is not the same as it was 3 years ago, so your response to an older version has no real relevance to what happens in the present. anyway, going back to work... in logic...

 

Sure.

But I didn't comment on the latest version and I am not going back.

I tried the latest version and the bugs were strong with this one.

 

10.5.1? working beautifully here (& apparently for lots of other pros who use it). either way, glad you have the tools you need to work, that's what matters most.

 

Sure.

But I didn't comment on the latest version and I am not going back.

I tried the latest version and the bugs were strong with this one.

 

10.5.1? working beautifully here (& apparently for lots of other pros who use it). either way, glad you have the tools you need to work, that's what matters most.

I am happy for you that you can get things done. That's all that matters. The tools are really unimportant as long as it does what you want it to do.

Exactly why I gave up on Logic.

 

 

Left Logic and this forum 3 yrs ago and saw this comment today for the first time.

Funny enough I abandoned Studio One for several reasons and I am mainly using PT and Cubase currently so I guess you were right!

 

you don't use logic, and you're responding to a post from 3 years ago... because? anyway, lots of pros use logic, and all is well (or well enough). not sure why u felt u needed to stop by and post....

 

One can never get over Logic love. It is like the old girl/boyfriend that you hate but still stalk because you are still in love

One can never get over Logic love. It is like the old girl/boyfriend that you hate but still stalk because you are still in love

 

Hahaha, I'd say it's more like remembering the psychotic girl/boyfriend that you managed to get away from. There were definitely great times but they were greatly shadowed by misery and despair

Edited August 6, 2020 by Muuseec

One can never get over Logic love. It is like the old girl/boyfriend that you hate but still stalk because you are still in love

 

Hahaha, I'd say t's more like remembering the psychotic girl/boyfriend that you managed to get away from. There were definitely great times but they were greatly shadowed by misery and despair

 

remember, your experience isn't everyone's; lots of ppl use logic, do pro work, and are happy with it (this forum is full of such people)...

One can never get over Logic love. It is like the old girl/boyfriend that you hate but still stalk because you are still in love

 

Hahaha, I'd say t's more like remembering the psychotic girl/boyfriend that you managed to get away from. There were definitely great times but they were greatly shadowed by misery and despair

 

 

remember, your experience isn't everyone's; lots of ppl use logic, do pro work, and are happy with it (this forum is full of such people)...

 

Of course.

There is an infinite number of hardware setups and an infinite number of ways to work and utilize a daw which means that everyones experience is different, but still valid.

 

Therefore it's great that there are many daws to choose from so you can find one that works for you.