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Drum kit designer versus drum machine designer - multi output


arlesterc

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It seems that when I am in Drum Kit Designer and choose a kit I can also choose multi-out so that I can then create separate output tracks for a kit by hitting the plus button that shows up in the mixer view for the track and each time I click it creates the corresponding extra track for the particular instrument in the kit e.g. snare, tom, kick, etc.

 

However  the multi-out doesn't seem to be available in Drum Machine Designer.  Is that correct?

 

Also if it is correct is there a way for me to find the underlying drum sample that is being used from the library? So for instance in Drum Machine Designer there will be in the Trap Door kit - Snare 1 and Snare 2.  Are these stored in the general library section somewhere?  In different words, are Trap Door Snare1 and Trap Door Snare2 samples I can locate from the search/library/explorer function - there are actual files that are Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 and Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 are only aliases - the sample has a real name?  If so how would I go about finding what the 'real' names and locations of Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 are?

 

Thanks in advance.

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is there a way for me to find the underlying drum sample that is being used from the library? So for instance in Drum Machine Designer there will be in the Trap Door kit - Snare 1 and Snare 2.  Are these stored in the general library section somewhere?  In different words, are Trap Door Snare1 and Trap Door Snare2 samples I can locate from the search/library/explorer function - there are actual files that are Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 and Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 are only aliases - the sample has a real name?  If so how would I go about finding what the 'real' names and locations of Trap Door Snare 1 and Trap Door Snare 2 are?

You can find the entries in the Library. You could use the search. Or you can open DMD, click the desired cell and look for the sample name in the list of equivalent samples that appears in the Library: 

 

915245870_TrapDoorSnare.png.bd34d4f110bdbadc20058ab2a43bfc66.png

 

If you are looking for the actual underlying sample (audio file) then you have to open Ultrabeat, which is inserted in the first channel strip to the left of the DMD channel strip in the Mixer (after clicking the disclosure triangle). Click "Snare 1 Trap Door" in the column on the left then click the name of the sample at the top of the waveform display in Osc2 to reveal the file in the Finder: 

 

291226608_DrumMachineDesignerSample.gif.0804a86b2f8316268ea2095c82cbdc49.gif

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  • 4 years later...
However  the multi-out doesn't seem to be available in Drum Machine Designer.  Is that correct?

Drum Machine Designer is a bit different but you can still do it: in the Mixer, click the disclosure triangle that appears to the bottom left of the DMD channel strip.

 

DMD Multi Outs.png

 

I couldn't do it, after pressing the Disclosure triangle, clicking on the "+" sign of the instrument to create a sub-instance of this instrument, and then right-clicking the strip in the mixer to select Create Track. This creates a new instance of the same instrument, which will not be visible to you as a "pad" in Drum Machine Designer. You can't drag and drop the instance of that instrument to a pad in Drum Machine Designer, and you can't select the instance from the pad. You can only create a new instrument.

(The consequence of all of the above is I don't know if there's a way to use Drummer together with Drum Machine Designer so that it's multi-output.)

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Drum Machine Designer is a bit different but you can still do it: in the Mixer, click the disclosure triangle that appears to the bottom left of the DMD channel strip.

 

DMD Multi Outs.png

 

I couldn't do it, after pressing the Disclosure triangle, clicking on the "+" sign of the instrument to create a sub-instance of this instrument

DMD doesn't work the same: it does not have a + button to create subtracks, so you're cliking on the wrong + button and are duplicating the entire stack instead. So don't click on any + button. Instead, follow only the instruction I gave, that you quoted: "in the Mixer, click the disclosure triangle that appears to the bottom left of the DMD channel strip." — you should then have access to all the subtracks inside the DMD stack.

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I couldn't do it, after pressing the Disclosure triangle, clicking on the "+" sign of the instrument to create a sub-instance of this instrument

DMD doesn't work the same: it does not have a + button to create subtracks, so you're cliking on the wrong + button and are duplicating the entire stack instead. So don't click on any + button. Instead, follow only the instruction I gave, that you quoted: "in the Mixer, click the disclosure triangle that appears to the bottom left of the DMD channel strip." — you should then have access to all the subtracks inside the DMD stack.

 

Of course, this works fine and well if I just want to use DMD with a multi-output plugin, e. g. in step sequencer. But if I wanted to use Drummer to program DMD, each DMD pad requires me to initiate a new virtual instrument. (E. g. Then I would have a one virtual instrument instance for snare, one for kick, one for cymbals etc...) Seems there's no easy way to multi-output to Drummer.

 

This is what my attempted DMD + Drummer multi-output setup looks like:

 

738097388_DMDDrummerMulti-output.thumb.jpg.cdc58c9b3e14949c9d62f46f0a83c62a.jpg

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Of course, this works fine and well if I just want to use DMD with a multi-output plugin, e. g. in step sequencer.

No, that's not what I meant. I wasn't thinking of using a multi-out plug-in or step sequencer.

 

But if I wanted to use Drummer to program DMD, each DMD pad requires me to initiate a new virtual instrument.

I'm not sure what you mean or how you're using Drummer and DMD exactly, can you give the steps to reproduce your issue exactly? For example, if I open a new empty project with one drummer track and choose an Electronic Drummer then follow the steps I gave you (open the Mixer and click the disclosure triangle) I get this (my screen isn't wide enough to display all the channels):

 

1513580080_DMDmulti-channels.thumb.png.bc95ab94c62e4eba6cc08f42e9276e2a.png

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Yes, David, I understand how to view the channels. What I don't understand is that I can use multi-output plugins in a Drummer for some virtual instruments, but not for others.

 

Here's the only workflow which currently works for me:

 

1083787539_Single-outputvsmulti-output.thumb.jpg.aaca54fce27c833ff13f8d66b2244414.jpg

 

To get a kick, a snare and a cymbal out of this virtual instrument and have Drummer play them, I had to initialize three separate instances of that same instrument to three different DMD channels. (As you can see, I also tried creating one multi-output instrument but Drummer doesn't play it separately.) It would be smarter if there was only one instance of the instrument, which would provide three multi-output channels. Doing so is entirely possible with e. g. Ultrabeat (probably because multi-output Ultrabeat somehow itself seems to map different pitches to separate channels and therefore can used in Drummer without DMD), but it's not possible with the instrument I'm using (Chipsounds).

 

My instrument doesn't give me the desired results when used with Drummer alone; DMD is also required. When using my instrument with Drummer and DMD, a new instance of the instrument has to be created for each different sound.

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Before 10.5 DMD was designed to work with Ultrabeat in multi-output mode but since 10.5 it's been revamped to work with multiple single-output instances of Drum Synth or Quick Sampler instead. That could be why you're experiencing that behavior.

Sounds like a step back(?). I have not even tried Ultrabeat in DMD. I only tried it with multi-output in Drummer, (like I said) without DMD.

 

The kind of plugin I'm using (Chipsounds) works well with Drummer, but requires DMD. Seems to me DMD doesn't understand multi-output instruments.

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...My instrument doesn't give me the desired results when used with Drummer alone; DMD is also required....

Why do you need DMD ? If it's just for mapping the notes, then there are better ways to do it...

 

It's not ultimately for mapping the notes. It's for being even able to use my plugin (Chipsounds) for Drummer. It doesn't work with Drummer alone; that's why I also use DMD.

 

We have discussed this extensively.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151475&p=792175#p792175

 

(In this thread, I mused about remapping notes with Scripter to be able to use my plugin with Drummer or my USB drumpads. Someone, you or Atlas007, maybe suggested using a Transformer object. But at the end of the thread, I end up renouncing Scripter and Transformer in favor of DMD, which Dewdman42 says is much more convenient. And he's right.)

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I don't know that plugin or what problems you get when using it with Drummer, could you elaborate on that ? Regarding multiple instances in the DMD setup, I found this post from dewdman42.

 

ps - this would be a really good case for using a Drum Machine Designer, by the way, then you won't need a scripter script.

 

You set up each cell of DMD as its own instance of ChipSounds. Don't even mess around with midi channels.

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Sounds like a step back(?).

It's a step forward. A multi-timbral, multi-output instrument requires a lot of resources (RAM, CPU etc.) and doesn't leave any flexibility for how Logic can handle the resources it requires. For example, Logic can't easily put the instrument in some kind of sleep mode if you're using only one of its channels, whereas when using multiple individual instruments, Logic can easily use resources only for the individual instruments currently in use in that part of the song.

 

For these reasons, and from the ground up, Logic was always optimized to work with single output instruments on their own channel strips, rather than multi-output instruments feeding multiple Aux channel strips. This lets you use many more individual instances of instrument plug-ins that are each lighter in resources, and lets Logic manage the resources required by each instrument. The old Ultrabeat-multi-out DMD implementation was just a temporary patch, this new and improved Drum Synth (which uses Ultrabeat behind the hood) and Quick Sampler implementation follows that same paradigm.

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Sounds like a step back(?).

It's a step forward. A multi-timbral, multi-output instrument requires a lot of resources (RAM, CPU etc.) and doesn't leave any flexibility for how Logic can handle the resources it requires. For example, Logic can't easily put the instrument in some kind of sleep mode if you're using only one of its channels, whereas when using multiple individual instruments, Logic can easily use resources only for the individual instruments currently in use in that part of the song.

 

For these reasons, and from the ground up, Logic was always optimized to work with single output instruments on their own channel strips, rather than multi-output instruments feeding multiple Aux channel strips. This lets you use many more individual instances of instrument plug-ins that are each lighter in resources, and lets Logic manage the resources required by each instrument. The old Ultrabeat-multi-out DMD implementation was just a temporary patch, this new and improved Drum Synth (which uses Ultrabeat behind the hood) and Quick Sampler implementation follows that same paradigm.

 

What I primarily had in mind was that working with one multi-output instrument rather than several single-output instruments would be more nifty, as I could control the sounds/channels in a more centralized manner and not having to jump between different instances of the same instrument (while in DMD). I was thinking much less in terms of RAM/CPU. (Concerning that topic, the first thread I found was: viewtopic.php?t=86840)

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What I primarily had in mind was that working with one multi-output instrument rather than several single-output instruments would be more nifty, as I could control the sounds/channels in a more centralized manner and not having to jump between different instances of the same instrument (while in DMD).

You're probably thinking in terms of using 3rd party instruments.

 

With Logic's built-in instruments, all you have to do in the new implementation is open DMD, click a cell, and access the instrument's interface in the pane below. You can have a mix of Quick Sampler and Drum Synth instruments and access all of them within a single plug-in interface. That's pretty nifty.

 

Before 10.5, you had to open your DMD track stack to select the first subtrack (Overheads) so that you could open the single multi-out instrument, then figure out what Ultrabeat voice corresponds to which DMD cell. That was pretty clunky.

 

Apple (and, by extension, the Logic team) have the choice to bow down to how other manufacturers make their plug-ins, and constantly follow the path traced by others, and adapt to their designs. Or make their own designs, make up their own rules, make their own path, letting others free to follow it or not. They've always leaned toward the latter.

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Apple (and, by extension, the Logic team) have the choice to bow down to how other manufacturers make their plug-ins, and constantly follow the path traced by others, and adapt to their designs. Or make their own designs, make up their own rules, make their own path, letting others free to follow it or not. They've always leaned toward the latter.

 

Yes, radically so, as instanced by when they cut 32-bit application support and removed all 32-bit apps from Apple Store.

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding multiple instances in the DMD setup, I found this post from dewdman42.

 

Yeah, I'm currently using multiple single-output instances of my 3rd party plugin in DMD, as per that post by dewdman42. (I don't use Scripter, because all that talk about Scripter was a misunderstanding on my part.)

 

I don't know that plugin or what problems you get when using it with Drummer, could you elaborate on that ?

If I remove DMD out of the equation, I won't get different sounds out of my plugin using Drummer. Drummer only plays different pitches of Channel 1, instead of different channels, so you can imagine that it's impossible to get snare, kick, cymbals etc. when DMD has been subtracted.

 

(For some built-in Plugins such as UItrabeat it's possible to get all of these benefits from Drummer without needing DMD.)

 

Drummer_example.thumb.jpg.e06034571270dc4a2858e82ebe6a3282.jpg

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It’s possible to use a multi-timbral Instrument in DMD, but it’s kind of a PITA to setup. There is thread where I shared a template you can use to get started. I’m on my phone right now I’ll look for it later. But honestly it’s a lot easier to just use one separate Inst per pad. You need a very compelling reason to use a multi Timbral one. There are occasionally some justifications, but generally you will avoid grief by just using one Inst per pad as David explained
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It’s possible to use a multi-timbral Instrument in DMD, but it’s kind of a PITA to setup. There is thread where I shared a template you can use to get started. I’m on my phone right now I’ll look for it later. But honestly it’s a lot easier to just use one separate Inst per pad. You need a very compelling reason to use a multi Timbral one. There are occasionally some justifications, but generally you will avoid grief by just using one Inst per pad as David explained

Multi-output is a bit different from (more complicated than) multitimbral, though.

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Multi output to where? DMD is just a special track stack.

 

Multi-output to DMD, possibly within 1 single DMD "pad". While this is all possible for me to do presently, if I however want to use Drummer, then Drummer won't take multiple cues from multi-output instrument. (In using Drummer, only one single sound/channel (Channel 1) is active when using a multi-output instrument.) Therefore I'm limited to using multiple single-output instances in using Drummer. (As I've described, I'm dependent on DMD; if I remove DMD from the equation, Drummer becomes useless for my 3rd party plugin since it can only play only one sound/channel (that is, different pitches of it) of that 3rd party plugin.)

 

Example: I need a snare, kick and cymbal and I want Drummer to use all of them. For this I need to to put three different single-output plugins into three different DMD "pads". Should I remove DMD, then Drummer will play only, let's say, snare and won't include kick and cymbal. Although yeah I can probably use a multi-output instrument to enter different sounds into the DMD step sequencer, Drummer will never play all the three different sounds this way.

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so do I understand you correctly that you wish to have one pad trigger three sounds at once....is that what you mean by multi-output?

 

No, this is not correct. (This could be achieved just by setting each plugin channels to "omni".) Instead of having three DMD pads each trigger three unique single-output instance of my 3rd party plugin, I want to have three DMD pads each trigger a unique/separate channel of the same multi-output instance of my 3rd party plugin. (Because the different channels would be easier to control if they had only one common instrument instead of needing three instances of that same plugin/instrument.) Of course, my wish is already possible if I just want to input notes into piano roll / step sequencer, but it's not achievable with Drummer for reasons described above.

 

If there is no simple way to do it, forget it.

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I want to have three DMD pads each trigger a unique/separate channel of the same multi-output instance of my 3rd party plugin. (Because the different channels would be easier to control if they had only one common instrument instead of needing three instances of that same plugin/instrument.)

 

This is possible, I already explained, as a multi-timbral instrument. You said something about multi-output, which I still don't understand exactly what you are needing.

 

It is definitely possible to have DMD control different channels of a multi-timbral instrument. its just not easy to setup, but its possible.

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