Use Logic and midi to change banks on hardware synths

My relationship to MIDI is that I usually get it to work as communication between my synths and computer (I/O), and that's really it. It simply works every time I turn it on. But, I really could wish I understood more, and have tried many times to read a lot without understand much about bits and bytes and more that is to it.

 

Now I am wondering how I could let my Logic Pro X change the voice banks on my hardware synths, not only single voices. For example I am trying to program my Logic to change Yamaha W7 voice from let say G-01 (general midi piano), to for example P1-01 voice. I mean, the voice itself is not important here, but how to let midi in Logic change between different banks?

 

I really love to reuse my dusted W7 or EX5 synths, but I am having problems to set it up right. I have most song on discs, and to get it over to my Logic would make it much easier. If you see the screenprint, I have succeeded in making 3 different sound on the 3 first channels (voice 10, 20 and 30) - but unfortunately only with the same GM voices/bank. I use most Internal or Preset voices. Some ideas? How much MIDI information do I need to set up/program, for the synths to communicate properly trough MIDI? I am not really a newbie to MIDI, but there are some knowledge missing.

Hey I'm trying to do the same thing.. I hear there's something called an "LFO" file. 

Try googling

"yamaha motif lso logic" or use yahoo.com.  It tends to bring more results from user forums which is good in this case.  If I succeeed I'll update you.

 

Btw, are you able to choose motif patch for any 1 particular patch with 1 external midi track?  or not that either?

Much easier to use multi-instruments in the environment for this - ther are a bunch of common MIDI bank/patch change formats, and you can define your own custom ones, and name all your patches so you can select by patch name from Logic.

 

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

 

The Scripter MIDI-FX plugin is perfect for this.

 

J.

Much easier to use multi-instruments in the environment for this - ther are a bunch of common MIDI bank/patch change formats, and you can define your own custom ones, and name all your patches so you can select by patch name from Logic.

 

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

Ok, tanks. I have been on the multi-instrument environment, but I do not find much information in how to set this up in my case. What should I look for and set up for having an external synth to work in this environment?

 

However, I have pretty much focused on the Event list, and have succeeded in doing much more than I could do yesterday. For example I can adjust volume, and both Effect 1, 2 and 3 controllers. I guess this is control changes and not program changes, so I still have problems with changing banks. And I have tried for hours now. I have luck with changing a preset bank voice/patch back to GM voice on my Yamaha W7, and from a preset bank voice/patch back to Internal voice on my Yamaha EX5. But there it stops. What should this event list look like, to succeed with changing bank? This is how it looks for the above changes:

 

I have also looked up in my Yamaha W7 manual and tried all kinds of combination for this charge:

 

But since nothing works, I guess I do something wrong with how this is set up in the event list? In other word: How should it look like for this charge to taking place?

  

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

 

The Scripter MIDI-FX plugin is perfect for this.

Yes, this application was one of the first things I looked at the Scripter plugin to do, but had some significant limitations and the interface you can set up is pretty poor. It can be done (depending on your requirements) but for my uses it didn't work out too well for a useful practical way of doing it, so I'm looking at implementing other solutions (for my use cases).

Much easier to use multi-instruments in the environment for this - ther are a bunch of common MIDI bank/patch change formats, and you can define your own custom ones, and name all your patches so you can select by patch name from Logic.

 

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

I think I am getting closer, but what can I do next? I guess I have to have something between each line, is that correct?

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

 

The Scripter MIDI-FX plugin is perfect for this.

 

J.

Jordi,   do you know how to do this?  i'm just trying to choose the motif preset thru Logic..  I can do external midi to the motif for now from Logic but have to manually change the patch on the Motif.. i'd pay you for time for a quick remote session if that works.. should be quick

I spent a bit of time trying to use Logic Banks. Had little luck.. Since their are only 15 of them..  Logic expects the Bank to have the same MSB, and LSB for each bank.. 

 

Yamaha Tyros for example use a huge number of MSB/LSB combinations  (+ prog) for each sound.  So you can't very many patches

 

The event list is the way to go (at least for me)..  You can also use any CC events to get more control over sounds than from your instrument face panel alone.. 

 

picture of CC event list - https://app.box.com/files/0/f/1665391682/1/f_14689818998

 

Midi file to insert in each track - https://app.box.com/s/z3ek8mcbkh9wekrd4eza

 

You can make your own control Sequence depending on which CC events you want to control

In the environment you need to create multi instruments. You highlight the multi instrument and then you select the tab "Option" and choose "Define Custom bank messages".

This will open a window with 16 rows, banks 0-15. Most external synths have each bank defined by an LSB and an MSB (at least my Motif is so). So in reality you need two rows to define each bank. The first 2 rows should be renamed Bank-0, the second two, Bank-1 and so on.. In other words you rename the banks to be Bank-0 for the first two rows and Bank-1 for the second two rows and so on.. The value in the "Num" column decides whether you're addressing MSB or LSB. It should be 0 for MSB and 32 for LSB. The "Value" column is the actual value of MSB and LSB as sepcified by the synth manufacturer's data table for each bank. So in the end each multi instrument will address 8 banks only. If your synth has more banks then you create another multi instrument (call it like Roland-2).. and you define banks 8-15 in the same manner.

You then create an "External MIDI" track and select the particular multi instrument you need. In the inspector panel you select the bank and the program within the bank (the particular voice) that you want to address.

To me this area of complicated midi handling has been left untouched, probably since the early versions of logic, due to the fact that SW instruments are becoming so good that people use them more and more. I think this part ought to be rewritten and made a lot simpler.

 

I hope this was your question and I hope this helps. I am enclosing  2 screenshots of my  env. set up, hope they also come in useful.

 

 

Thanks. This was bringing me many steps further. However, I have still not succeed after punching in the above data.

I guess this do not work because I really don't know what should be happening here. When choosing Bank 1, I have succeeded (or did it happen by default) to let it choose/find the GM bank. I have also succeeded in changing to all different voices (like Celesta) in the voice menu. However, choosing Bank 1, 2, 3, 4, or more (I am playing around with the bank select button underneath the 8 = Celesta place) - just give me a "off" display on my hardware synth:

 

 

Do I miss some programming here?

Hmm.. The screenshot I added was just an example from my Motif.. I probably didn't clarify this. What you need to do is refer to the Data Sheet of your particular synthesizer/keyboard and get the values for LSB and MSB for each bank. These will be the values you should write in the column "Val" for each bank.

Great info by omar17166. This is a crime of Logic...Apple should be ashamed but I guess they are to busy making phones obsolete. I remember how great sounddiver was and people always said how great Logic is with MIDI. By the time i take all these step I don't even want to create music so it very frustrating. Even old version of Pro Tools are simple to set up with load a midnam file you are done.

Great info by omar17166. This is a crime of Logic...Apple should be ashamed but I guess they are to busy making phones obsolete. I remember how great sounddiver was and people always said how great Logic is with MIDI. By the time i take all these step I don't even want to create music so it very frustrating. Even old version of Pro Tools are simple to set up with load a midnam file you are done.

 

Logic's Environment is still extremely powerful....but the idea with it is that you set it up once for your studio....save this as a template....and use the template when creating new projects.

You can import Environment objects from other projects to simplify the task of modifying projects from other users/old projects etc.

I appreciate the learning curve is steeper than other apps, but the Environment does more stuff.

As such, it can be intimidating for new users - and even some old hands who are adding new hardware devices to their studios.

Once it is set up, however, it is elegant and seamless to choose patches, banks, adjust MIDI params and so on.

 

Apple have spent the last few years effectively "hiding" the Environment from users....but every time you create a new track with the + button in the main window, for example, Logic invisibly creates new fader objects in the Environment and cables them. Same goes with Auxes in the Mixer and a number of other things you do in other windows.

The Environment is still at the core/heart of Logic....just most users don't see it these days because it isn't necessary to directly use it for many folks.

As such, it's a bit of a mystery to many newer users...but for a few of the "lifers", diving into the Environment was how you actually got Logic to do anything beyond the basics - literally.

Great feedback thanks. I might have to go ahead and create one for Kurzweil 2600 and Triton Classic - unless anyone has one already???

I remember back with Logic 7, there were some SERIOUS environment templates, sequences, all kind of data manipulation.. I googled for info but there is almost nothing about Logic Environment. I called Apple. There response, 'it is too complicated for us to give technical support'. Really helpful..

I know this was years ago, but after two weeks of struggle, I've gotten the bank selects to work with a Roland XV 5050 thanks to this thread. Thanks if y'all are still around. It was brutal. And I have yet to type in the kabbillion patch names...

Search the interwebs, text lists with preset names are out there for you to copy-paste.

 

Like this:

http://synthedoc.free.fr/Roland/Doc/liste_xv5050.pdf

Thanks, I have those in a .txt file but cut and paste are not working for me.

Thanks, I have those in a .txt file but cut and paste are not working for me.

You should be able to copy one bank at a time. A list of 128 names, one on each line.

In my case I actually prefer to spend time looking into the data sheet of my instrument and the way to address it from logic. Ready templates are of course good if that's all you want, but in my case I use sysex to control not only bank/instrument changes, but different built in arpeggios, volume attacks, various effects: chorus, echo, room-size, etc.. All these can be variations built into the external device and so can be controlled by the project in real time as it's playing. In my earlier reply I explained how I control my Motif XF.

Yes, did that in the past too with the various hardware units that are all gone now. Like this:

 

or this

 

or this

 

or this

 

However, I also remember the depths of rabbit holes you had to get into to pull this off, as documentation was usually cryptic as hell and sometimes outright wrong. Also, as you can tell, the changes Apple did to the graphics over the various Logic versions weren't exactly kind to the Environment's objects...

Yes, did that in the past too with the various hardware units that are all gone now. Like this:

 

dss.png

or this

 

pod.png

or this

 

fm.png

or this

 

d110.png

However, I also remember the depths of rabbit holes you had to get into to pull this off, as documentation was usually cryptic as hell and sometimes outright wrong. Also, as you can tell, the changes Apple did to the graphics over the various Logic versions weren't exactly kind to the Environment's objects...

 

Wow, yes, with so many instruments I do agree. It is quite a painful task. And as you say, apple's interface is really lousy in this respect. I fear it's all to do with marketing and supply and demand. SW instruments are definitely taking over now, and quite deservedly. If you look at the orchestral/piano/synth sounds you get from Kontakt libraries, just as an example, you'd understand.

Wow! That's some serious environment work.

Um, thanks. But no. This is some serious Environment work:

viewtopic.php?t=140689#p725298

Um, thanks. But no. This is some serious Environment work:

viewtopic.php?t=140689#p725298

It looks like an abstract painting!!!

Hello Omar I did not have an account on this site but I came across your post after very long searches.

I hope you get my message because this topic is so old.

 

viewtopic.php?t=131025

 

I created an account just to thank you because I tried for years to use the logic environment in order to control my 10 keyboards and… thanks to you I found !

 

Without laughing, I've been looking since logic 7… it's been at least 10 years .

So thank you and be careful in these times of corona virus.

 

Didier French Caribean West Indies/

Hello Didier!

Thank you so much for the kind words and for taking the time and effort to reach me (got your private message too )

I am happy I could be of some help!

 

I am also glad I got you to create an account here. This is a very good forum and I think that you'll find the people here to be very nice and generously helpful .. I have had a lot of help with my problems all the time, and if you intend to continue using Logic I am sure you'll like this forum too..

 

Thanks again and best regards ✋

I just wish they'd integrate this better with the more modern way of handling instruments (through the external instrument plugin) as currently you'd need to use a separate MIDI track to access the patch names/selection in the inspector, or keep a floating environment window open...

 

The Scripter MIDI-FX plugin is perfect for this.

 

J.

 

Thanks Jordi, I have been trying to save my favourite external synth patches as Logic Pro Instrument patches for ages. I have been able to save each of the external gear as a patch, but not my favourite patches within that synth....that would mean I would need to send program changes to the external synth, which I had no idea how to do. I never knew about the Scripter Midi-FX plugin before. Now its easy.......many thanks my friend, you've saved me time and a lot of heart ache.