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LPX 10.3.2 is out


CCTMusic

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I don't believe EXS will ever getting a reskin/update in my opinion.  I can't see why the Logic team would do such a thing.

 

The amount of resources it would take to bring it up to date would be better spent building a new sampler, that was capable of importing/transferring EXS files to on a user basis.  But then how would that sit vs Alchemy?  Too much conflict there.

 

They won't touch the original EXS though, it's just too valuable for most people's projects to be messing around with, if they done a good job they would only receive hate in response anyway, it only takes the Amp envelope to be out, or the way polyphony works etc. and it can throw your whole sound out.

 

Would love to see EXS updated though as it really is getting tired, Alchemy is just too heavy for me to default to it for basic sampling duties - Something along the lines of TAL sampler, Or Ableton Sampler would be perfect sat inside Logic.  Perhaps Alchemini ? :)

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It’s not correct to claim that one of the richest companies the world has ever known doesn’t have the resources to fix basic problems with its’ standard-bearer professional software. It’s not that they don’t have the resources, rather it’s that they haven’t allocated the resources. This should tell us Logic users all we need to know about Apple’s priorities. If Apple chooses to, it can use a tiny percentage of its’ $25 billion cash reserves to solve these problems. No?

No...as I mentioned earlier, DSP devs don't grow on trees.

Apple has a number of the very best engineers in this area, but there isn't an endless supply of them. It is not simply a case of throwing cash at the "problems".

When a truly gifted engineer does show up on the job market, Ableton, Steinberg, MotU, Cakewalk, AVID, NI, PreSonus, etc. are all in the frame - and not everyone wants to work for Apple, wants to work in a given location, wants to work x days a week etc. It's not only about money for many people.

Music software is an incredibly tiny speck in the global software marketplace...and while Apple may be a giant, that still doesn't change the number of available engineers in this very specialised field.

Many of the engineers who could work in the music software biz choose to put their skills to use in comms, gaming, etc. - either for the money, or because that's where they prefer to work.

 

 

Are you both saying that we should only complain about long-standing issues in the way Apple prescribe or expect to be ignored? They read the posts in this forum, don’t they? If not, they really should. 

 

As for venting - the whole purpose of it is to jar. You’re talking about people who were sold a promise and have invested their working life & careers in a system that creates pent-up frustration and you expect them not to vent. And besides, I think people generally vent very politely on this forum. No cause for complaint there, surely.  

 

I’ll tell you why I and many others choose to vent on this forum instead of, or in addition to, directing it to Apple. It’s because we get a response. Sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but a response none-the-less. What’s the alternative? A message sent into the black hole-of-nothingness that is Apple. No feedback. No apology. Nothing. Once the money has been handed over, Apple seem to think their responsibility ends there. No, it doesn’t. Not to me and not to many others.

OK. The suggestion of writing to Apple directly means it goes through Support, QA, whoever....and ends up being checked out by someone who - if they can replicate the problem - eventually will send this info to the relevant dev team...where it would be allocated to an engineer. This is typically the way such mechanisms work in software feedback systems.

 

You have the choice to vent here or elsewhere as you please, but my suggestion was that it is not going to get the attention of an Apple employee because I'm pretty confident they don't have staff who are explicitly employed to scan forums (an exception may be the official Apple forums). In essence, if an Apple employee happened to be browsing LPH and came across a thread - such as the bugs thread(s) - and chose to pass this on to relevant teams....it would be cool, but far less likely to happen than going through the "black hole" official channels.

 

As far as "responsibility" and your perception go...that's your call. Apple's responsibility to their shareholders is to make money and provide dividends. Their responsibility to their customers is to make products that work, but their millions of users use those products in different ways with different hardware and software combinations. As such, it is not always as clear-cut as it may appear to an end user. Working on the premise that the responsibilities to both shareholders and consumers are linked - pissed off consumers stop buying their products, leading to pissed off shareholders - it makes sense for Apple to make their products the best they can be/to constantly improve them.

 

As we're specifically talking about Logic, this is happening with loads of fixes/enhancements incorporated at each point release....at no cost to users - and the odd small, inconsequential freebie like Alchemy, Flex Pitch, new plug-ins, new UIs, Track Alternatives, Region-based processing, a.s.o. thrown in.

For some, this isn't happening fast enough, or misses their personal bugbear, but to suggest that Apple are taking no responsibility after taking people's money is disingenuous.

Edited by oscwilde
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A further misconception is that Apple has unlimited resources in a massive pool of developers and as mentioned, there aren't unlimited resources.

 

It’s not correct to claim that one of the richest companies the world has ever known doesn’t have the resources to fix basic problems with its’ standard-bearer professional software. It’s not that they don’t have the resources, rather it’s that they haven’t allocated the resources. This should tell us Logic users all we need to know about Apple’s priorities. If Apple chooses to, it can use a tiny percentage of its’ $25 billion cash reserves to solve these problems. No?

 

It's not a question of money. Clearly they have all the money they want to throw at the problem.

It sounds like you're not that familiar with software development, or how Apple works in general (I'm not trying to be patronising here, I promise!)

 

Firstly, Apple have a huge problem recruiting developers - they basically recruit or try to recruit all the good developers they can, and those they don't have simply don't want to work for Apple (ie, they are doing their own thing).

 

Secondly, Apple in general operate fairly small developer teams, and there are long understood good reasons for this. Simply throwing more money and/or more developers at a task *does not* make that task happen more quickly - plenty of case studies on this. Throwing in more developers into a massive codebase takes them time to get into it, and usually slows down the existing team.

 

To me, the fact that all the basic plugins haven't been reskinned shows to me that it's a) less of a priority than other things (including developing new features, fixing bugs, making technology transitions, supporting new Apple-mandated features etc) and b) it's probably more work to do than it appears (so, it's not just spending a few hours creating some new assets and changing a few code references, but it's actually having to refactor the plugins into a new set of frameworks - ie much more work under the hood than it might seem.)

 

Otherwise, they'd have likely dedicated one or more devs for a few days to get it done and off the tasklist, and be done with it.

 

By “longer-term issues” do you mean basic functions not working correctly? Basic functions should work flawlessly. All the time. No excuses. Ask a pilot.

 

Well yes, kind of, and certainly in an ideal world. But we are not all running a single version of Logic on a dedicated, single spec machine, like an integrated system on an aircraft is. We are running Logic on a whole mishmash of hardware, OS, third-party software, third-party hardware systems - it is *impossible* to guarantee software works 100% on everything. Not to mention continual changes to the codebase, which can break older stuff (this kind of thing is mostly down to human error, and usually good software teams have ways to detect and handle these things bfore they get out into to the wild, but the complexity of testing means stuff will get through - *all* large software works like this. Not just Logic, not just audio software - *all* software. There are reasons for it.)

 

There is never enough testing. You can dedicate whatever resources you want to testing, and implementing systems to automate tests - you still can't test exhaustively. It's a software development thing, and again, plenty of academic info on this too.

 

Yes, basic things *should* work and not break, and this is another reason why they work so hard at fixing things when they surface - look at the bug fixes on each Logic release. How many of those bugs affected you, or would you have found?

 

As for venting - the whole purpose of it is to jar. You’re talking about people who were sold a promise and have invested their working life & careers in a system that creates pent-up frustration and you expect them not to vent.

 

Well, it's a system that creates an amazing product for an incredible value, and one with, like most things isn't perfect.

 

It's been a while since I did software engineering at Uni, but in various Software Reliability courses I remember at the time that there was only one, large scale software platform that was 100% bug free in the world, and that was the NASA shuttle flight system. And we analysed the development structure and how they did it, and it required *frightening* amount of resources to do this, way way impractical for any company to do, and evn impractical for many mission critical applications (and Logic is not one of those, but it *is* complex, and a real-time system, it's complexity is not to be sniffed at, especially whn you add in 20+ years of legacy code.)

 

I’ll tell you why I and many others choose to vent on this forum instead of, or in addition to, directing it to Apple. It’s because we get a response. Sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but a response none-the-less. What’s the alternative? A message sent into the black hole-of-nothingness that is Apple. No feedback. No apology. Nothing. Once the money has been handed over, Apple seem to think their responsibility ends there. No, it doesn’t. Not to me and not to many others.

 

I understand, and feel similarly to some degree. I think many of us, at least pro-users, would love Apple to be a little more open, but it's a corporate thing (which has changed a little since SJ's passing, but not enough). However, it's not a black hole of nothingness, though it can feel like it at times. I don't want to go into details, but like some of the other folks here, all I can say is that Apple *is* listening and reaches out, where the guys can, *all the time*, albeit in a fairly constrained way. I can tell you that most of those guys would *also* love to be a little more open than they are allowed, but they do what they can. I've always been pretty impressed with them, actually, if you get a chance to interact with them directly.

 

Apple have to get it into their heads that basic operations should work intuitively & flawlessly. Considering that they also design the computer that operates it, they can have no excuses. And further, I don't have the time or inclination to provide Apple with a running commentary of all the niggles and flaws in their system.

 

Sure, and understand that view, and it *is* what software companies strive to do, within the best of their ability and resources. The fact that *none* of them deliver what you want - *none* of them - indicates just how hard this is to achieve in our practical real world. And it doesn't really have much to do with resources, or money... if it did, it would be a much simpler problem to solve.

 

In the meantime, Logic, flaws and all, is letting people like us do amazing things, create music, play, write, deliver audio content for a living, all for the price of a decent tennis racket (and not the price of a small car, like back in the nineties!). I kinda feel it's churlish to do nothing but complain (this isn't targeted at anyone in particular, just people that do nothing but complain all the time.)

 

Thanks oscwilde & des99 for sticking your necks out and giving the opposite view. It was very informative and, of course, gave me an opportunity to vent :D

 

No problem. Actually I have no problem with people discussing things that don't work right or being annoyed. I don't really considr that "venting", as long as it's constructive. It's the angry pointless shouting that Apple aren't solving *my* particular issues *now*, for me, and that they are therefore crap, that... well... makes me want to pointlessly vent... vicious circle etc..!

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Thanks des99 & oscwilde for you detailed replies. You're right, I know pretty much nothing about about software development so therefore find your insight interesting. I agree, bugs are bugs. No one puts them there intentionally. And, I'm absolutely sure, Apple are working to eliminate any that exist. And this is more for Apple than either of you, it's not the bugs that bug me, it's the workflow errors that bug me. 

 

Anyhoo chaps, thanks again & I hope all's well in your worlds. 

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I'd also like to add (for what it's worth), that Logic is never going to be perfect for everyone, and most of the things I'm reading here are not legitimate bugs, but workflow annoyances that don't suit their needs (the post-update threads are always amusing in that regard). I'm not saying there aren't bugs, but IMO Apple has done a wonderful job with these FREE updates. There are other DAW's out there, feel free to check them out. I also notice that a lot of these posters barely meet the minimum specs for running Logic in a "professional" manner. Just sayin....
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I also notice that a lot of these posters barely meet the minimum specs for running Logic in a "professional" manner. Just sayin....

Is that directed at me? What do you mean by "professional"? 

No one in particular. I just find it ridiculous when there are people saying they work in Logic daily, at a professional level, but have modest systems and peripherals. If it works for them, great, but I honestly don't see how they can pull off high level work and then blame Apple for their lack of productivity, etc. As for yourself, not sure if you're actually an audio engineer (whatever that means), but running an i5 with 8GB Ram these days is a fart in the wind.

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Is that directed at me? What do you mean by "professional"? 

No one in particular. I just find it ridiculous when there are people saying they work in Logic daily, at a professional level, but have modest systems and peripherals. If it works for them, great, but I honestly don't see how they can pull off high level work and then blame Apple for their lack of productivity, etc. As for yourself, not sure if you're actually an audio engineer (whatever that means), but running an i5 with 8GB Ram these days is a fart in the wind.

you mean, the work one does isn't important, but the specs of one's setup is? so 'pro' is not based on the quality of someone's work, but the 'quality' of their setup? that's a sad thought. i mean, i work on a 13" macbook pro, with tiny eve-audio sc203s (i do also have expensive 'pro' headphones), and a 2-octave cme keyboard. and do quite well. am i pro? does the 16GB of ram make that true? or is it cancelled out by the rest of the setup?

Edited by fisherking
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So does anyone actually know any of the developers who work on logic? I had a look on apples website and did some googling  but cant quite find anything specific to logic.

Yes, many people here do, and longtime Logic users will know many of the folks from before Apple removed their names from the About box, and from an earlier internet time when a lot of the emagic folks were online... and other reasons... 

 

Apple don't like advertising individuals' contributions as a rule, mostly for competitive reasons apparently (they don't want their people being approached by other companies), which is why their apps have no names in the about boxes. I don't think it's necessarily suitable to call them out here though...

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I'd also like to add (for what it's worth), that Logic is never going to be perfect for everyone, and most of the things I'm reading here are not legitimate bugs, but workflow annoyances that don't suit their needs (the post-update threads are always amusing in that regard). I'm not saying there aren't bugs, but IMO Apple has done a wonderful job with these FREE updates. There are other DAW's out there, feel free to check them out. I also notice that a lot of these posters barely meet the minimum specs for running Logic in a "professional" manner. Just sayin....
No one in particular. I just find it ridiculous when there are people saying they work in Logic daily, at a professional level, but have modest systems and peripherals. If it works for them, great, but I honestly don't see how they can pull off high level work and then blame Apple for their lack of productivity, etc. As for yourself, not sure if you're actually an audio engineer (whatever that means), but running an i5 with 8GB Ram these days is a fart in the wind.

So, when you said it wasn’t directed at me you meant it was directed at me. 

 

Ok. Please explain how a higher spec computer will improve the workflow of Logic? How will it remove or limit the bugs? How will my productivity improve? What, exactly, is high level work? And you still haven’t specified the meaning of ‘professional’. 

 

I’m repeating fisherking but, bare with me. How does a modest computer and peripherals, whatever they are, limit creativity? I can understand a commercial studio requiring state of the art computers but why do I? Seeing as you know my requirements, please enlighten me? 

 

Look back through the posts to see why I changed ‘recording engineer’ to ‘audio engineer’. Then feel free to apologise to the person you may have offended. 

 

Let’s now knock this myth that Logic updates are free, on the head. People keep saying it but it remains untrue. For a start Logic is $200 every 4-5 years. Cheap, but not free. Say 250k people buy it, that’s sales of $50,000,000. How is the software operated? Oh look, Apple make computers! Let’s say only 50,000 of the above who otherwise wouldn’t have bought one goes out and buys a Mac to run Logic. Average price of say $2000. That’s $100,000,000 in sales. Now ask yourself, how often are we railroaded into upgrading the computer? Are you starting to get the picture? It’s not free! Apple are not a charity. They’re a big corporation who are out to make money. That’s fine, but the agreement is that they give me what I want in return. I’m not asking for much. I just want the basics to work intuitively and as flawlessly as possible. 

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Is that directed at me? What do you mean by "professional"? 

No one in particular. I just find it ridiculous when there are people saying they work in Logic daily, at a professional level, but have modest systems and peripherals. If it works for them, great, but I honestly don't see how they can pull off high level work and then blame Apple for their lack of productivity, etc. As for yourself, not sure if you're actually an audio engineer (whatever that means), but running an i5 with 8GB Ram these days is a fart in the wind.

You like to find things ridiculous do you? Spend a lot of your free time doing that? Chill that attitude dude.

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Look at ProTools. 600 bucks with an iLok. And I'm talking basic PT, not HD which is what they use in studios, where the software alone is 2000 bucks.

To stay up to date it costs you 100 bucks a year.

 

Compare that to Logic: 200 bucks, no iLok

To stay up to date it cost you nothing.

 

4 years with Logic 200 bucks

4 years with ProTools 1000 bucks, and I'm not counting all the additional plugins you have to buy to equal Logic's flex pitch, samplers, virtual instruments and drummer.

 

Just a simple comparison with another popular DAW.

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Look at ProTools. 600 bucks with an iLok. And I'm talking basic PT, not HD which is what they use in studios, where the software alone is 2000 bucks.

To stay up to date it costs you 100 bucks a year.

 

Compare that to Logic: 200 bucks, no iLok

To stay up to date it cost you nothing.

 

4 years with Logic 200 bucks

4 years with ProTools 1000 bucks, and I'm not counting all the additional plugins you have to buy to equal Logic's flex pitch, samplers, virtual instruments and drummer.

 

Just a simple comparison with another popular DAW.

perfect. even the PT subscription model is $300 a year...

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So does anyone actually know any of the developers who work on logic? I had a look on apples website and did some googling  but cant quite find anything specific to logic.

Yes, many people here do, and longtime Logic users will know many of the folks from before Apple removed their names from the About box, and from an earlier internet time when a lot of the emagic folks were online... and other reasons... 

 

Apple don't like advertising individuals' contributions as a rule, mostly for competitive reasons apparently (they don't want their people being approached by other companies), which is why their apps have no names in the about boxes. I don't think it's necessarily suitable to call them out here though...

So are you saying there is no way to learn more about them? Or they just shouldn't be spoken of here? The reason i ask is because i have a copy of another daw and i'm familiar with some of the folks that work on it. They do tutorials and give tips just wondering why apple doesn't do the same or if they've ever even considered it.

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They do tutorials and give tips just wondering why apple doesn't do the same or if they've ever even considered it.

Have you checked the published updated documentation? Not perfect, but more extensive than many other competitors...

What about Logic's online help option? Well improved for sure!

Besides, there are many other resources. Including David's book...

Edited by Atlas007
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So are you saying there is no way to learn more about them? Or they just shouldn't be spoken of here? The reason i ask is because i have a copy of another daw and i'm familiar with some of the folks that work on it. They do tutorials and give tips just wondering why apple doesn't do the same or if they've ever even considered it.

I know one person who touched on Logic work, but they've been moved to IOS audio dev for some upcoming tech, they won't reveal it but i'm guessing AU3 plugins maybe?  They've been with Apple for a LONG long time now, and says the talent there is huge, to the point that it's quite daunting, also that everyone (including apple) are great and open to helping you grow yourself rather than trying to put you down to make themselves irreplaceable (Like in many places) - honestly, think they are brainwashed to the point that it scares me lol.  Unless, it really is a great place to work of course! :)

 

They may be reading this so i won't say much more, but the above will give them a chuckle though.

 

But yeah, it's safe to say a lot of the devs are all over the net, whether that's Social Media, forums like this, or the Xcode/dev forums - but you'll never know unless they feel the need to reveal it, i've had PM's from people on other forums who work on some top analog synth hardware before in the past, and it's really interesting how passionate and old school they are with their knowledge, you just presume they'd be sick after working on it all day - but it's not always the case.

 

And as has been posted, this is hands down the best resource for Logic users, David has put years of knowledge into his books, there's years of discussion that can be searched here.  Really, i think that's a massive benefit of using Logic, the legacy that exists.

 

On top of that Apple have a massive documentation library, whether you're an end-user or dev yourself the documentation they put out is superb in my experience, the dev side of things has a certain format to it, but once you have that you can get the info/help you need really quick.

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They do tutorials and give tips just wondering why apple doesn't do the same or if they've ever even considered it.

Have you checked the published updated documentation? Not perfect, but more extensive than many other competitors...

What about Logic's online help option? Well improved for sure!

Besides, there are many other resources. Including David's book...

Well i'm not exactly looking for help at the moment i just feel like it would be nice to know whats on the priority list for the devs before considering jumping ship to another platform. Other daw developers will communicate with the user base, maybe not in full detail but they will acknowledge things brought up by the users. I do realize that there are a ton of resources to learn or get help with logic but idk...sometimes it would nice to know some feature request or long standing bugs will be addressed.

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Unfortunately, you're not going to get that from Apple, likely not ever, so if that's important to you, you're probably better of with some other DAW where the company *does* communicate like this. Are here any? I don't know of any... Not Avid, not Steinberg, not Ableton... Reaper..? 

 

Otherwise, buy software for what it is and what it does *now*, not for something that might hopefully someday be there you will continually wait for....

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So are you saying there is no way to learn more about them? Or they just shouldn't be spoken of here? The reason i ask is because i have a copy of another daw and i'm familiar with some of the folks that work on it. They do tutorials and give tips just wondering why apple doesn't do the same or if they've ever even considered it.

I know one person who touched on Logic work, but they've been moved to IOS audio dev for some upcoming tech, they won't reveal it but i'm guessing AU3 plugins maybe?  They've been with Apple for a LONG long time now, and says the talent there is huge, to the point that it's quite daunting, also that everyone (including apple) are great and open to helping you grow yourself rather than trying to put you down to make themselves irreplaceable (Like in many places) - honestly, think they are brainwashed to the point that it scares me lol.  Unless, it really is a great place to work of course! :)

 

They may be reading this so i won't say much more, but the above will give them a chuckle though.

 

But yeah, it's safe to say a lot of the devs are all over the net, whether that's Social Media, forums like this, or the Xcode/dev forums - but you'll never know unless they feel the need to reveal it, i've had PM's from people on other forums who work on some top analog synth hardware before in the past, and it's really interesting how passionate and old school they are with their knowledge, you just presume they'd be sick after working on it all day - but it's not always the case.

 

And as has been posted, this is hands down the best resource for Logic users, David has put years of knowledge into his books, there's years of discussion that can be searched here.  Really, i think that's a massive benefit of using Logic, the legacy that exists.

 

On top of that Apple have a massive documentation library, whether you're an end-user or dev yourself the documentation they put out is superb in my experience, the dev side of things has a certain format to it, but once you have that you can get the info/help you need really quick.

haha these guys are like urban legends. By the way do you know of any AU3 compatible plugins yet?

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No one in particular. I just find it ridiculous...

You like to find things ridiculous do you? Spend a lot of your free time doing that? Chill that attitude dude.

I concur.  And this applies to a number of folks on this thread. 

I always thought these "10.x.x is out." threads were for highlighting the new features and how they are working; not having to wade through endless sniveling and moaning in TLDR monologues about what it isn't.

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missing .. region to place (multiple regions seperate at time)

missing .. Bounce/32 bit Float Point

missing .. all fades operation realtime (main window)

missing .. fade in-out key command and ctrl+F fade in-out preferences

missing .. multich audio warping

missing .. exx 24-space desig. delay desig. alchemy Retina new guı

missing .. dolby atmos mix and support dolby RMU 

missing .. new channel eq (transparent filter Hp Lp ) and better clarity for 400 hz

 

i will wait next lpx update 10.3.3 i hope will comes before new year 2018

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Have you checked the published updated documentation? Not perfect, but more extensive than many other competitors...

What about Logic's online help option? Well improved for sure!

Besides, there are many other resources. Including David's book...

Well i'm not exactly looking for help at the moment i just feel like it would be nice to know whats on the priority list for the devs before considering jumping ship to another platform. Other daw developers will communicate with the user base, maybe not in full detail but they will acknowledge things brought up by the users. I do realize that there are a ton of resources to learn or get help with logic but idk...sometimes it would nice to know some feature request or long standing bugs will be addressed.

Priorities in Logic development are bound to be changing over time, depending of various trends (musical tendances, competitors focus, new tech discoveries, users requests, legal regulations, etc, to name a few), which are all pretty much unpredictable. Hence, authorizing Apple's employees to tell about development plans, either on an individual basis or under a public relation framework, would most likely yield to eventually feed customer's hope with "vaporware" that in many case would never materialize and consequently jeopardize the essential trust relationship a responsible company owes to maintain with his customers.

Besides, and understandably, it is not strategically clever to reveal in advance the new features to be implemented in future updates...

However, rest assured that, like any other IT company, ironing bugs remains always high in the priority list. The outweighing length of the bugs solved list compared to the new features one, in the  release notes, would confirm this.

From your perspective, it is totally legitimate to seek for what is to come, in order to enlighten your choice of another DAW/platform. You are the only one to know what are your priorities, therefore also the only one to judge what would be best for you. It would however be important to mention, that regardless of your choice, you will face limitation, bugs, disapointment and workflow adaptation to deal with. Considering that, and the learning curve required by every DAW/platform, the entailing time investment to master your tool should also be an important priority.

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Well i'm not exactly looking for help at the moment i just feel like it would be nice to know whats on the priority list for the devs before considering jumping ship to another platform. Other daw developers will communicate with the user base, maybe not in full detail but they will acknowledge things brought up by the users. I do realize that there are a ton of resources to learn or get help with logic but idk...sometimes it would nice to know some feature request or long standing bugs will be addressed.

Priorities in Logic development are bound to be changing over time, depending of various trends (musical tendances, competitors focus, new tech discoveries, users requests, legal regulations, etc, to name a few), which are all pretty much unpredictable. Hence, authorizing Apple's employees to tell about development plans, either on an individual basis or under a public relation framework, would most likely yield to eventually feed customer's hope with "vaporware" that in many case would never materialize and consequently jeopardize the essential trust relationship a responsible company owes to maintain with his customers.

Besides, and understandably, it is not strategically clever to reveal in advance the new features to be implemented in future updates...

However, rest assured that, like any other IT company, ironing bugs remains always high in the priority list. The outweighing length of the bugs solved list compared to the new features one, in the  release notes, would confirm this.

From your perspective, it is totally legitimate to seek for what is to come, in order to enlighten your choice of another DAW/platform. You are the only one to know what are your priorities, therefore also the only one to judge what would be best for you. It would however be important to mention, that regardless of your choice, you will face limitation, bugs, disapointment and workflow adaptation to deal with. Considering that, and the learning curve required by every DAW/platform, the entailing time investment to master your tool should also be an important priority.

I agree with everything you said. Maybe my frustrations have made me want for a few unlikely things, but i will say this, as mush as i love logic some things absolutely drive me crazy which in turn make wonder if they listen. As you said its obvious they do looking at the release notes but i just don't get how certain bugs or issues exist still even after multiple Version releases. Either way im going to just continue to work like always until i way my other options. 

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as mush as i love logic some things absolutely drive me crazy which in turn make wonder if they listen.

The problem appears to not be that they are not listening, but they're not involving the customer in the process - so the customer assumes there is no process going on - and then feels ignored.

 

And you know that pretty much *every user* of Logic (substitute brand name for any professional level complex sofware widely used) probably feels the same way, to a greater or lesser degree.

 

And *every one* of those people probably have different lists. Mine will be different to yours, because I use the program differently to you. A score guy is going to have a whole bunch of stuff in their lists that I don't have because I barely *use* the score stuff. So you're a ten or twenty strong development team, with, what *at least* many hundreds of thousands of users - how do you realistically listen personally to *each* of them, and solve each person's requirements in a way that doesn't mess up someone else's requirements? On a timescale to suit them?

 

You do it the way all sizeable software companies do - you provide a funnel for incoming feedback, bugs, crashes and so on, and you triage those things, and you prioritise, try to figure out what things to do in what order, bearing in the mind the work involved, the estimated time and effort involved, you figure out how to convert users wishes into an actual implementation plan (there are thing people want that can't be implemented in the way one individual would like, for many reasons), combine those priorities with all your existing ones - corporate strategy, featiures you want to build for future versions, technology transitions and so on, and you move through the compiled priorities bit by bit, day by day.

If that sounds like a lot of effort - it is.

 

If you think it should - and can - work differently, then you're going against pretty much all the experienced, long-time software houses working on large scale software, who presumably, are experts and very experienced at doing this and have at arrived at their approach because that's basically the way to do it.

 

Yes, we'd all love to be in the room with our favourite developers of software we love, and tell them about what we think is brilliant, and what our personal niggles are, and have them say "there, there... I'll make it all better, and fix and implement your personal desires right away" but life doesn't work like it. (Having said that, it's pretty cool on the occasions when it does! :) )

 

So yes, discuss, ask, wish, dream, report, and hope - but in the meantime, realise also that whatever these small niggles are, they are *nothing* compared to how *great* this stuff is. Having started by bouncing home keyboards between two borrowed cassette decks to realise my music, I envy those people who are starting with a Mac and Garageband - seriously, it's *incredible* the resources we all have at our disposal. We've never had it so good.

 

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