Multitimbral struggles

You can not freeze multi output instruments.

 

You also can't Bounce in Place which is a major bummer. I've never understood why BIP isn't available to use on all track types, even on MIDI tracks. It would seem if I can hear audio from a region on a track, Logic should be able to bounce it quickly into an audio region on a new track, even if it's not an offline bounce.

You can not freeze multi output instruments.

 

You also can't Bounce in Place which is a major bummer. I've never understood why BIP isn't available to use on all track types, even on MIDI tracks. It would seem if I can hear audio from a region on a track, Logic should be able to bounce it quickly into an audio region on a new track, even if it's not an offline bounce.

 

I'm just experimenting with Eric's aux channel suggestion, and bounce in place is working for me... I'm using VE Pro to host a multi-timbral instance of kontakt. Try again?

 

The aux thing is awesome! Totally fixes my workflow, because now I can add audio FX plugins to each individual instrument that's loaded up in the main window (and view them without switching to the mixer view), along with adjusting the level and pan in the main window as if it's an individual kontakt instrument. Woohoo!

 

(now to rebuild my template... again.)

 

You also can't Bounce in Place which is a major bummer. I've never understood why BIP isn't available to use on all track types, even on MIDI tracks. It would seem if I can hear audio from a region on a track, Logic should be able to bounce it quickly into an audio region on a new track, even if it's not an offline bounce.

 

I'm just experimenting with Eric's aux channel suggestion, and bounce in place is working for me... I'm using VE Pro to host a multi-timbral instance of kontakt. Try again?

 

I was totally wrong. You can now BIP MIDI on AUX tracks and on MIDI tracks! This is amazing!

I use one instance of Kontakt or Play per instrument via VEP 6.

One additional thing I want to point out about LPX multi-timbral mode, since its using AUX channels for the extra outputs:

 

In LPX, AUX channels are handled like live audio. Meaning that pre-rendering can't occur. So the way LPX does plugin delay compensation is that for Audio and Inst tracks, LPX determines how early it needs to play back each of the regions on that track so that it will be rendered in sync with the click. It looks at the reported latency of each plugin on that track and determines their latency and then plays the regions earlier.

 

AUX tracks however are handled differently because they are "live". What LPX does for AUX channels is to look at all the plugins, determine the latency and then delays all other tracks in the project so that they will be delayed by the same amount as the AUX channel. The assumption is that an AUX channel doesn't have regions which can be played back early, so it handles plugin delay compensation differently.

 

However, in this case we are talking about a feature where regions can actually be played through AUX channels somehow.. so the question is..what happens with delay compensation and syncronization using this setup of regions fed directly to an AUX? Well they aren't really being fed directly to an AUX, they are being fed to an instrument somehow, which is in turn sending the final output "live" to the aux. So...I'm not really sure of the ramifications here, but just wanted to point this out.

I use one instance of Kontakt or Play per instrument via VEP 6.

 

I was as well, but all those instances crushed my old Mac Pro's slave computer CPU. It's been rock-solid stable since I made the switch. Also, I had trouble getting the IP address stuff all sorted between main and slave computer. I'm using four VE Pro instances now instead of 40, so the IP thing is less thorny with fewer instances.

 

If there's enough juice on your slave computer, probably wouldn't matter, but it did for me.

So is the consensus that multi-timbral tracks work well in Logic in that case? I guess I can give this another try with the other Aux method Eric mentioned. But man, I'm still feeling pretty lost on the architecture of this thing.

Well you have three ways to do it and it definitely works and there is a time and place for it. That being said I’m not sure it always makes sense to use multi timbral mode. sometimes it might.

 

Using separate kontakt instances will let you freeze tracks and spread the load around to cores a little more.

 

In the other hand if you’re working with a multi setup that is more convenient to work that way then go ahead why not

So is the consensus that multi-timbral tracks work well in Logic in that case? I guess I can give this another try with the other Aux method Eric mentioned. But man, I'm still feeling pretty lost on the architecture of this thing.

 

IMO it's easier on the system, but it does take some time to get the hang of. This article from Native Instruments should help:

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/209558589-Using-KONTAKT-5-as-a-Multi-timbral-Instrument-in-Logic-Pro-X

 

Make sure you pay attention to the batch function inside Kontakt's output pane: "clear output section and create one individual channel for each instrument"

 

I've found that this method gives you all the benefits of individual instances (adding audio plugins, individual volume control, etc.)... especially when you use Eric's aux technique.

 

Good luck!

Well interestingly, a lot of people out there have done tests and concluded that you aren’t saving that much resources by using multi timbral mode and LPX is less able to spread the load across cores that way. There are sometimes some workflow enhancements by using multi timbral. More instances of the plugin are not always so expensive in many cases like kontakt it’s not an issue. Maybe something else like omnisphere might be. There are pros and cons and there is no single right or wrong way to do it

Yeah, that makes sense! My issue was with my slave computer using VE Pro on an older Mac Pro. It was a constant battle keeping all those instances running, and it took a half hour to reload the template. It hasn't crashed once since I switched, but it wasn't a Logic issue for me.

Here's another consideration that occurred to me this morning. LPX track freeze doesn't free memory, it only relieves the CPU. So if you do orch cues that require a lot of sample based tracks, you can run out of memory easily on an older machine. This might be one case where using Kontakt multi-timbral makes sense. Because in kontakt you can use the PURGE function to free up all the memory from kontakt so that it only loads the actual samples you are using in your cue. This can also be done with instance-per-instrument kontakt, but its a lot easier to access the purge feature in kontakt if you have multiple instruments loaded into a single instance of kontakt.

 

The downside of that is, you can't use LPX track freeze feature to free up CPU cycles, can only do track bouncing.

The insight is much appreciated, thanks Dewd.

 

Currently, I believe my issue is CPU overload. Earlier I was trying to make a template using multi's the way the NI article described, and Logic (and even my computer) just kept freezing, over and over again. One minute things would be fine, then one action, like adding an instrument or hitting save would suddenly cause everything to freeze. So I gave up and decided I need to just grab individual instruments as I need them until I can afford a Mac Pro one day (probably far) in the future. Now I'm working on something with about 5 individual Kontakt instances, a couple Arturia V synths, and some Logic studio horns, and I keep getting this error:

That means CPU, if I'm not mistaken? (And my buffer size is at max).

 

I guess I'll give Eric's method a try once I'm done with this one project.

One thing I have noticed also when using the AUX track method, you need to make sure none of the AUX tracks are selected when you hit play. Create a dummy extra track with no instrument on it and select that before hitting play. I'm willing to bet you won't get that system overload.

 

I'm just experimenting with Eric's aux channel suggestion, and bounce in place is working for me... I'm using VE Pro to host a multi-timbral instance of kontakt. Try again?

 

I was totally wrong. You can now BIP MIDI on AUX tracks and on MIDI tracks! This is amazing!

 

how? When I try to bounce an AUX track I get nothing

 

I was totally wrong. You can now BIP MIDI on AUX tracks and on MIDI tracks! This is amazing!

 

how? When I try to bounce an AUX track I get nothing

 

Highlight region with the marquee tool, then Control B worked for me... Are you on 10.4? Maybe this was in an update?

I'm on 10.4

 

That is bouncing REGION in place not track. FWIW.

 

Trying to bounce the track in place does not work for AUX tracks.

 

I have been running through all 3-4 methods that i know of for dealing with multi-timbral situations and there are some pros and cons to each approach, none is perfect. I will probably post a summary of what I found at some point, still testing it out...

Snap! I've never used bounce track in place, always region. Weird that one works, but not the other.

 

Interested to hear what you figure out!

I reckon that bouncing regions might not apply track automation, yes? Not really sure about that, but certainly you would need to make sure to select all the regions in the track in order to do it that way.

Ok, I spent most of day running through 4 different approaches for handling multi-timbral scenarios and keeping good notes. Each method has pros and cons, there is no one perfect way to do it. Here is what I have found out. Summary at the end.

 

Multi-Timbral vs Single Instrument per track

 

Here are the pros and cons in general of using Multi-Timbral setups vs just putting each instrument on its own LPX track.

 

Advantages

1. Some multi-timbral instruments are more ideally suited for working with several related sounds in one "multi" instrument.
   
2. Sometimes its easier to work inside one multi-timbral instance then to constantly opening and closing many single instrument instances. For example, the Kontakt global purge command is very convenient with a kontakt multi setup to manage memory.
   
3. Midifx for all the instruments in the multi have to funnel through one midifx section. That can be an advantage if, for example, you want to use one arp to drive several different instruments of a multi.
   
4. Some multi-timbral instruments might consume a lot of memory for each instance regardless of the sounds that are loaded, in which case it might make sense to use multi-timbral mode.

 

Disadvantages

1. You can't use Track freeze to easily freeze tracks, reducing CPU overhead
   
2. Generally you can't offline bounce AUX tracks, but you can offline bounce by region.
   
3. Using few instances focuses CPU load onto a single core sometimes rather then spreading it around to all the cores on the machine.
   
4. Midifx processing has to be funneled through a single midifx section for all channels sharing the same multi-timbral instrument. That can be a disadvantage if you need unique midi processing for each instrument.
   
5. The setups are generally a little more complicated, sometimes involving environment objects which are not always obvious how they work. Sometimes the track labels can be confusing and the relationship between tracks and mixer channels can sometimes be a little confusing

 

Conclusion

 

Using one track per instrument rather then multi-timbral modes is much less complicated, spreads the load to multiple cores and allows for track freezing, all very useful features. If you still desire to work in multi-timbral mode, then read on for several different ways to approach it, each with slightly different pros and cons.

 

Method #1 - The New Track Wizard

 

In this method, the New Tracks dialog is used to create new multi-timbral tracks.

 

Advantages

1. This is the method provided by Apple and easy to setup, though the underlying configuration created by the wizard is not that simple.
   
2. Because the tracks all point to the same underlying inst object using env faders, clicking on any one of them will display the same channel strip inspector on the left containing the instrument plugin to click on it and pull it up for tweaking without having to hunt around in the mixer for it.
   
3. Able to specify a different track delay for each track
   
4. Able to have multiple midi tracks for each multi-timbral part and deal with the returning audio as single sub-mixed stereo channel

Disadvantages

1. Because the mixer aux channels are not directly associated with a track it can get a little confusing in terms of selecting a track header and not having the corresponding mixer channel selected.
   
2. For the same reason its necessary to enter the environment in order to set icons for the aux mixer channels. This can be a little confusing.
   
3. Can't mute/solo the individual tracks from track header, attempting to do so mutes/solos all the tracks of the group, which basically refers to the first channel of the instrument since the track headers all point to the same underlying inst object. Note that the mixer window mute/solo switches will still function properly on the outgoing audio through AUX channels buttons
   
4. There is something fishy about the way the multi-timbral tracks are setup, for some reason the last track of the group is the one associated with the first instrument mixer channel. I believe this may be a bug. When you playback you hear audio from the first track, but the mixer channel is labeled as being associate with the last midi track of the group and selecting that track header selects the mixer channel that is actually the first instrument. The icon will be wrong too. This is a bug in LPX. (Note, I have found somewhat of a workaround, which is to create one extra dummy midi track and label it appropriately, then the mix channel strip will have and appropriate label and icon based on the dummy track, but it will still be a little confusing.)

 

Method #2 - The AUX Track trick

 

This is the method described earlier in this thread, requires manual setup as follows:

1. Create a software instrument track that has multi-outs (not multi-timbral)
   
2. click on the + button a few times to create the AUX channels for the multi-out audio
   
3. select the aux tracks in the mixer and use the mixer menu to create tracks from channel strips, this will create linked up aux tracks that are directly linked to the AUX mixer channels.
   
4. Go ahead and add midi regions to the aux tracks and they will be automagically routed to the right sounds in the underlying instrument.

 

Advantages

1. Less added objects in the environment such as extra fader objects (see above), etc. A little more involved to setup since you can't use Apples new tracks wizard.
   
2. There is more of a 1:1 correspondence between tracks and AUX channels, so it just makes more sense. Clicking on a track selects the corresponding AUX channel. The icons and labels are easy to set and make easy sense.
   
3. Able to mute/solo tracks from the track header, note that its muting the aux audio, not the actual midi being sent to the instrument

 

Disadvantages

1. Because of the 1:1 correspondence between tracks and AUX channels, clicking on a track header will show on the left channel strip inspector the channel for the AUX, rather then the one holding the instrument (as in the case above). So in order to find the instrument you need to either select the first track of the group or go find it in the mixer.
   
2. Not able to specify a different track delay for each aux track, for some reason this configuration indicates its using the value of "Inst", whatever that means.
   
3. I also ran into some kind of weird bug with Scripter where midi from the script was effecting other channels such as the metronome for no explicable reason. Don't have an explanation because LPX is doing automagical stuff under the covers to send the aux track midi regions back to the right instrument somehow.
   
4. Not able to use a multi-timbral instrument in stereo mode this way, have to use all the multi-outs and sum it back in LPX if desired.
   
5. This also forces you to create AUX channels for every single track you want to record, which can get used up, you can only have a ground total of 256 AUX channels in the project.
   
6. There is a known issue out there where you have to create a dummy track and make sure its selected during playback otherwise if one of the multi-timbral tracks is selected can easily get spikes and system overloads

 

Method #3 - Using Multi-Instrument

 

The old school way of dealing with multi-timbral instruments is to create a multi-instrument object in the environment.

1. First create a software instrument track and host the instrument of choice.
   
2. Then go into the environment and create a multi-instrument object and set it up for the channels desired and patched into the previously created software instrument.
   
3. Then create tracks that are assigned to the multi-instrument rather then directly to the instrument.
   
4. The + button can be used in the mixer to add AUX channels for mixing the multi-out audio.

 

Advantages

1. Mute/Solo in the track header can actually mute and solo the actual underlying midi before hitting the instrument. The track header fader effects midi CC7 of the midi. The track header meter displays midi rather than audio.
   
2. The mixer window will display midi faders for each midi track
   
3. There does not appear to be an upper limit to how many midi tracks you can create. Using the VEP multi port templates it may be possible to have thousands of midi tracks, so long as you are comfortable with submixing some of them in VEP.

 

Disadvantages

1. The most complicated to setup, not for the faint of heart
   
2. No possibility of offline bounce, all bounces must be done realtime through additional audio tracks.
   
3. The track view will have twice as many tracks because you have all the dedicated midi tracks in addition to audio tracks
   
4. It should be noted that these dedicated midi tracks can NOT support midifx plugins, so if you rely on scripting for articulation management, then you have to handle all mididix processing on the instrument channel, shared with potentially many midi tracks.

 

Conclusion

 

I don't have a strong conclusion. Each option has some pros and cons. You can't use Track freezing in multi-timbral, which is an important issue, but on the other hand there can be situations where multi-timbral is good. My reccomendation is don't use multi-timbral unless you really need to, if so, then heed the notes above.

 

UPDATE: Vienna Ensemble Pro

 

Through this experience I ended up buying Vienna Ensemble Pro while it was on sale and actually this is interesting because it supports more the use of multi-timbral operation. So all of the comments about multi-timbral modes of operating are more applicable to that situation. In VEP its generally preferable to have what they call "instances", each one hosting a multi-timbral instrument. Not a requirement, but many people work that way for various reasons.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dewdman42

Nice! Thanks for putting this all in one place!

Can someone please give Dewd a god-damn medal? Many many thanks for sharing all of that so thoroughly and clearly.

 

I think, just like that old Ask Audio article mentioned, the LPX developers seem to have chosen not to develop the multi-timbral functionality. (It sounds like it's because they have a different philosophy on it). Things get so sticky when trying to set up with any of those multi-timbral methods, what with the feature restrictions, buggy-ness, and workflow slow-down. Maybe I think that because I'm not used to that workflow – I see that other people do use it (perhaps it's a different story with VEP?). None of the multi-timbral options sound appealing or helpful to me though.

 

What that leaves me with though (and it seems like either way), is I just need a faster computer. Bah.

Since a couple of you have referenced my old AskAudio article, let me say this: It has gotten better over time with Logic and Multi-Timbral and of course computers are more powerful, we have SSDs, etc. But still, for people who want to run a a serious orchestral template, VE Pro is almost a "must have" IMHO.

 

If you are not doing orchestral reproduction, then separate instruments are still preferable whenever possible.

Eric, could you please explain how to put midi instruments into an aux track? I created a new aux track, but it seems to just be an audio track and I can't put an external instrument, etc. into it. I tried copying the channel setting of an existing midi instrument track to the aux, but it wouldn't put in the instrument. I also tried dragging a midi region into the track, but nothing happened after it was there. I'm hoping that if I use aux channels some of my latency issues will go away. Thanks.

Peter

I’m of the opinion right now, even with a lot of orch tracks I am going to try to use separate tracks for each and every “part”. I really like the track freeze feature. If I have a part that has a lot of articulations as separate instruments I might put them in a kontakt multi but still having stereo kontakt and no aux channels needed. Track freezing is just way too easy and convenient.

 

But managing memory will be a pita. Vepro is likely a soon future purchase which would solve that.

I'm definitely of the same mindset as Dewd, largely because of track freezing as well.

 

A question regarding VEPro – is it mostly only useful if used with a secondary machine (or machines)? Or does running it all on one (hopefully powerful) computer still save significantly on resources? VEPro is a tough purchase for me, because big orchestral recreation is only an occasional part of what I do. But it's especially tough with added machines and licenses.

It’s useful with LPX on a single machine too. Here’s why. You can host the instruments in single track mode there. When you’re ready to freeze a track in LPX then freeze it. Then in vep you can disable that instance and free up memory. If you need to unfreeze then just enable the instance in vep and unfreeze the LPX track and you’re back in business. LPX alone doesn’t release kontakt and it’s memory when you freeze.

 

Another advantage is you can setup a large template of instruments in vep and leave it loaded while you switch between different LPX projects that all need the same instrumentation without having to reload samples every time.

 

Another benefit; you can switch to an entirely different daw and basically use the same vep template and workflow.

 

I ended up buying it this week. And now that I have it I am inspired to build a pc to use as a secondary slave for vep because then I can leave more samples loaded pretty much all the time and might not even have to freeze tracks very often.

It goes without saying that it also basically doubles your cpu power too, but my Mac pro is actually plenty of cores to get things done. Vep really just makes things a bit more convenient so you don’t have to bounce tracks as often

Eric, could you please explain how to put midi instruments into an aux track? I created a new aux track, but it seems to just be an audio track and I can't put an external instrument, etc. into it. I tried copying the channel setting of an existing midi instrument track to the aux, but it wouldn't put in the instrument. I also tried dragging a midi region into the track, but nothing happened after it was there. I'm hoping that if I use aux channels some of my latency issues will go away. Thanks.

Peter

 

Create an instrument track and put a multi_out plugin on it. In the mixer click the + button on that channel to add six channels that are automatically connected to the multiple outs of the inst. then select those tracks and use the mixer menu to add them as tracks. Then add regions to the tracks with midi and see it work.

Also to be clear about vepro for the purposes of this thread, you can host multi-out instruments there also and build complex instances inside it with busses and what not. Then in LPX you have all the same options mentioned above to feed tracks to it multi-timbral style if you so desire.