Logic vs FL vs Protools vs Ableton vs etc...

you've used a number of paid versions of an app for a decade; that's usually how things work. but anyway... why are you 'wary of Apple now in a way I never used to be'? just wondering what that means..

I don't like their business M.O. on a number of fronts.

1) I don't like the annual OS upgrades that add more 'features' that I absolutely have no use for. Further, my experience with playing the upgrade game ended up making my 2011 mini-server (quad i7) unuseable as a recording machine. It seems to be planned obsolescence via OS updates. YMMV, but that is my experience. Almost every OS upgrade has degraded the performance of Logic.

2) I had to buy a new iPad for Logic Remote because my early 2012 iPad, though still perfectly functional, wouldn't connect Remote under ios 9, and that iPad wasn't upgradable to ios 10. Modern problems, I know, but....

3) Removing the option on the smaller iMacs to upgrade the memory myself. My iMac is a beast so I could upgrade the RAM myself, but what if I can't afford a beast when this one goes? Lowering the specs on the Mini because, it seems, they were taking a bite out of iMac and other unit sales.

4) Their unpredictability when it comes to in/outs. I mean, from what I've read, they've done away with headphone jacks on the new iPhones (which I don't own), and they keep changing the 'standard' for high-speed data transfer... Firewire 1...FW 2...Thunderbolt... USB C.

 

So, it just seems to me that Apple is mostly concerned with pushing their customer base onto the hardware upgrade treadmill, and I am starting to resent it.

apple has always moved things forward; scsi anyone? i remember people throwing out their $3000 umax scanners when scsi vanished. firewire? ha.

changes in an OS will obviously affect apps, and i've seen my share of issues between logic and os x. and yet, fwiw, my absolute best experience to date with logic and apple's OS: LX 10.3.2 on mac os 10.12.6. 

OS upgrades do much more than add new features, they bring under-the hood enhancements, and bug fixes (which i too prefer over new tricks). advancing tech should be a tech company's priority, and apple has always (and continues to) drag us, perhaps kicking & screaming, into the future. 

I don't like their business M.O. on a number of fronts.

1) I don't like the annual OS upgrades that add more 'features' that I absolutely have no use for. Further, my experience with playing the upgrade game ended up making my 2011 mini-server (quad i7) unuseable as a recording machine. It seems to be planned obsolescence via OS updates. YMMV, but that is my experience. Almost every OS upgrade has degraded the performance of Logic.

2) I had to buy a new iPad for Logic Remote because my early 2012 iPad, though still perfectly functional, wouldn't connect Remote under ios 9, and that iPad wasn't upgradable to ios 10. Modern problems, I know, but....

3) Removing the option on the smaller iMacs to upgrade the memory myself. My iMac is a beast so I could upgrade the RAM myself, but what if I can't afford a beast when this one goes? Lowering the specs on the Mini because, it seems, they were taking a bite out of iMac and other unit sales.

4) Their unpredictability when it comes to in/outs. I mean, from what I've read, they've done away with headphone jacks on the new iPhones (which I don't own), and they keep changing the 'standard' for high-speed data transfer... Firewire 1...FW 2...Thunderbolt... USB C.

 

So, it just seems to me that Apple is mostly concerned with pushing their customer base onto the hardware upgrade treadmill, and I am starting to resent it.

apple has always moved things forward; scsi anyone? i remember people throwing out their $3000 umax scanners when scsi vanished. firewire? ha.

changes in an OS will obviously affect apps, and i've seen my share of issues between logic and os x. and yet, fwiw, my absolute best experience to date with logic and apple's OS: LX 10.3.2 on mac os 10.12.6. 

OS upgrades do much more than add new features, they bring under-the hood enhancements, and bug fixes (which i too prefer over new tricks). advancing tech should be a tech company's priority, and apple has always (and continues to) drag us, perhaps kicking & screaming, into the future. 

For the most part, I agree with the response to the comment above by fisherking.

But I did get burned pretty badly with FireWire. I bought it hook line and sinker only to watch USB become ascendant ... and this after another "end all be all" technology (Thunderbolt) was promoted as THE answer...

I use primarily 4 different Mac's, my main (and oldest) one for music is an old Mac Pro from 2008 - it's only now has become obsolete since Sierra OS.  I don't have any complaints, run's a treat still, and more than happy with it remaining in this state.

 

Another Mac (mini) i use for admin work (Number/pages etc) , a newer MBP for remote 'on-site' work, and an older MBP for live audio work, and despite running different OS's i can swap between them without issues.

 

As for annual OS releases.  You don't 'have' to upgrade, but for those that like new stuff on an annual basis that compliment their mobile/ios devices which change every 2 years, it's available for them.

 

I've also been a long time firewire user, still use it fine, and always found it better than USB.

 

However, a few years back i was really down on Apple, i had a period where my 'on the move' MBP was beach balling wherever i wanted to use it, and i came close to smashing it against a wall in a carpark one evening and moving to windows, however, i decided to calm down and reinstall it the next day on to an SSD - since then, all has been great.

 

My mind, no doubt, will change when it comes to buying my next 'new' machine though, and it seems as though the performance is not the jump i would want, the port issue has had bad press and of course the pricing in the UK has shot through the roof, but right now i'm quite happy living in 'slightly older' mac world, and can quite happily stay there  for years in regards to music!

I don't like their business M.O. on a number of fronts.

1) I don't like the annual OS upgrades that add more 'features' that I absolutely have no use for. Further, my experience with playing the upgrade game ended up making my 2011 mini-server (quad i7) unuseable as a recording machine. It seems to be planned obsolescence via OS updates. YMMV, but that is my experience. Almost every OS upgrade has degraded the performance of Logic.

2) I had to buy a new iPad for Logic Remote because my early 2012 iPad, though still perfectly functional, wouldn't connect Remote under ios 9, and that iPad wasn't upgradable to ios 10. Modern problems, I know, but....

3) Removing the option on the smaller iMacs to upgrade the memory myself. My iMac is a beast so I could upgrade the RAM myself, but what if I can't afford a beast when this one goes? Lowering the specs on the Mini because, it seems, they were taking a bite out of iMac and other unit sales.

4) Their unpredictability when it comes to in/outs. I mean, from what I've read, they've done away with headphone jacks on the new iPhones (which I don't own), and they keep changing the 'standard' for high-speed data transfer... Firewire 1...FW 2...Thunderbolt... USB C.

 

So, it just seems to me that Apple is mostly concerned with pushing their customer base onto the hardware upgrade treadmill, and I am starting to resent it.

apple has always moved things forward; scsi anyone? i remember people throwing out their $3000 umax scanners when scsi vanished. firewire? ha.

changes in an OS will obviously affect apps, and i've seen my share of issues between logic and os x. and yet, fwiw, my absolute best experience to date with logic and apple's OS: LX 10.3.2 on mac os 10.12.6. 

OS upgrades do much more than add new features, they bring under-the hood enhancements, and bug fixes (which i too prefer over new tricks). advancing tech should be a tech company's priority, and apple has always (and continues to) drag us, perhaps kicking & screaming, into the future. 

I agree with you, up to a point, but: something like 'under-the hood enhancements' is a pretty nebulous concept, akin to 'snappier.' Enhancements for whom? Do people experience these 'enhancements' because they've been told they're there (i.e., placebo effect) or because there are actual measurable and reliable data that demonstrates them?

 

And your reply doesn't address Apple's actual downgrading of performance of their minis, locking in the amount of RAM on the 'cheaper' iMacs and minis, and another thing I just remembered, changing the parameters for the 1TB Fusion Drive, where it used to be 128GB flash memory to it now being 24gb--and not really advertising this fact. When I ordered this computer directly from Apple, I originally went for the 1TB choice, until I read the fine print and saw the change to 24gb. Is reducing the capability of their computers an 'enhancement?' I don't think so.

 

apple has always moved things forward; scsi anyone? i remember people throwing out their $3000 umax scanners when scsi vanished. firewire? ha.

changes in an OS will obviously affect apps, and i've seen my share of issues between logic and os x. and yet, fwiw, my absolute best experience to date with logic and apple's OS: LX 10.3.2 on mac os 10.12.6. 

OS upgrades do much more than add new features, they bring under-the hood enhancements, and bug fixes (which i too prefer over new tricks). advancing tech should be a tech company's priority, and apple has always (and continues to) drag us, perhaps kicking & screaming, into the future. 

I agree with you, up to a point, but: something like 'under-the hood enhancements' is a pretty nebulous concept, akin to 'snappier.' Enhancements for whom? Do people experience these 'enhancements' because they've been told they're there (i.e., placebo effect) or because there are actual measurable and reliable data that demonstrates them?

 

And your reply doesn't address Apple's actual downgrading of performance of their minis, locking in the amount of RAM on the 'cheaper' iMacs and minis, and another thing I just remembered, changing the parameters for the 1TB Fusion Drive, where it used to be 128GB flash memory to it now being 24gb--and not really advertising this fact. When I ordered this computer directly from Apple, I originally went for the 1TB choice, until I read the fine print and saw the change to 24gb. Is reducing the capability of their computers an 'enhancement?' I don't think so.

 

am certainly not arguing anything about the mini; i know nothing about it, so i hear what you're saying. but i stand by 'under the hood'; hardly a 'nebulous' concept, this is where things matter most; the code. how things behave, how your apps work. speed. stability. functionality. and again, for me, this is the most important thing, more than 'improved' eye candy, or 'fun new features'. i want my mac to be as fast, light, stable, and functional as possible. and that's the (hopeful) promise of a new OS. while nothing is perfect, the OS does get, over time: lighter, faster. more stable, more functional. and, to be fair, it's not a straight climb up, it is (and has always been) a bumpy road. 

i enjoy being on that road. 

 

Asking because I'm hearing that logic is outdated nowadays...

I would LOVE to hear the rationing behind this

Download all the major DAWS that have trials and see which one sits your workflow...that is it. And really, avoid visiting certain DAW forums (ie: Steinberg), as they are chauk full of users claiming they are full of bugs, etc. Honestly though, this forum (Log pro Help) is one of the few that are actually helpful and positive in that regard.

Couldn't agree more with the last sentence!

I would LOVE to hear the rationing behind this

Download all the major DAWS that have trials and see which one sits your workflow...that is it. And really, avoid visiting certain DAW forums (ie: Steinberg), as they are chauk full of users claiming they are full of bugs, etc. Honestly though, this forum (Log pro Help) is one of the few that are actually helpful and positive in that regard.

Couldn't agree more with the last sentence!

agreed!

Would like to know the pros and cons of the major music editors out there.  Would appreciate any and all opinions

 

Asking because I'm hearing that logic is outdated nowadays...

slayboi hi

I think they are all similar to be honest, Logic seems to have extra stuff for songwriters though, like the DRUMMER, and the Logic Forum is big help.

Whichever you choose, just stick with it, I was trying a bit of Pro Tools, a bit of Studio One, bit of Reaper etc, too many different keyboard shortcuts etc to learn, I finally stuck with Logic and I am very happy.

Good luck

What does Bitwig can do that Logic can't?

What does Bitwig can do that Logic can't?

1. Bitwig has the 'Clip Launcher' feature which is basically the same thing as Ableton's non-linear Session View. You can also have the Clip Launcher and Arrangement view going on at the same time.

2. Bitwig has 'Devices' and Drum Machine, similar to Ableton's Racks and Drum Racks.

Bitwig also has a very advanced system of modulators. Apart from these 3 things, you can do everything else in Logic as well. 

What does Bitwig can do that Logic can't?

Better ask what does Bitwig can't do that Logic can...And the answer is : A lot!

What does Bitwig can do that Logic can't?

Better ask what does Bitwig can't do that Logic can...And the answer is : A lot!

This is actually quite true!

 

For starters, it has no proper audio comping feature. No take folders. No Movie Track feature. No Score Editor. Stock plugins and instruments are kinda crappy. 

What does Bitwig can do that Logic can't?

If it fits in with your workflow (Particularly EDM) then song writing/construction-wise the session/clip modes of Ableton and Bitwig are massive and can't be understated, used with a push/launchpad for example, it turns everything you know in Logic on it's head, particularly if sequencing drum machines/samplers/software instruments, Ableton and Bitwig for me, just fall down vs Logic when you want to go deeper.

However, one of the biggest advantages is that unlike Logic, you are able to record and jump between tracks without ever needing to stop the music.

If it fits in with your workflow (Particularly EDM) then song writing/construction-wise the session/clip modes of Ableton and Bitwig are massive and can't be understated, used with a push/launchpad for example, it turns everything you know in Logic on it's head, particularly if sequencing drum machines/samplers/software instruments, Ableton and Bitwig for me, just fall down vs Logic when you want to go deeper. However, one of the biggest advantages is that unlike Logic, you are able to record and jump between tracks without ever needing to stop the music.

This is totally true as well!

all DAWs have their strenghs (and weaknesses). so the trick is to figure out your needs, and find the right DAW for that. 

 

still, any modern DAW can be used to make music, so, like my friend matthew (who recently bought Live, and hated it), he's figuring it out all the same, and is starting to make some good music.

 

we pick a tool, and make that work. i came from reason (the app, lol), and moved to logic... and couldn't be happier.

pick a DAW, learn your way around, and get to work. period.

 

(i used to love telling people i started with reason, then moved to logic...),

(i used to love telling people i started with reason, then moved to logic...),

You'll end up a 'fruity' old man, i can tell!

sonar we're making jokes, are we? i AM a digital performer, sometimes live with my garageband, until the reaper comes to get me, at nuendo it all...

Thanx anp2.

Drum Machine and especially Drum Racks looks pretty similar to Drum Machine Designer, no?

Are Devices just another name for plugins?

Thanx anp2.

Drum Machine and especially Drum Racks looks pretty similar to Drum Machine Designer, no?

Are Devices just another name for plugins?

No problem! Drum Racks is definitely similar to Drum Machine Designer but it's a much more condensed and consolidated version of it. 

Devices are not plugins, but basically a 'container' with which you can place a chain of plugins inside of. Logic's alternative would be a 'Channel Strip'. Devices are much more elegant though.. in BItwig you can have an unlimited number of plugins in a single Device if you wanted. You can save these Devices for later use too. 

Did you have seen the totally price of Fruity loops All plugins  € 810,04   its crazy haha. Logic with €200 and free updates is much better

 

BUT with FL Studio, once you buy it you get updates FOR LIFE, both major and non-major updates. No other company offers this, not even Logic. So that's something to consider.

That would still be about 20 years before you broke even, Logic hasn't charged for an upgrade in 5 years.