Thoughts on Third Party Plugin Parameters Presentation

A bit new to the virtual instrument game - I am more singer/guitarist starting to dabble in keyboard. I went for the Nektar Panorama P6 because it uses no wrappers and so sees what Logic sees so can control Logic's native instruments and tight integration with transport and automation and looping/punching in all from the keyboard.

 

They also have a plist plugin paramter mapping tool to make it easy to order the parameters against the Panorama's generous controls.

 

But ... as I start to purchase more VI's - Toontrack, UVI, NI, Arturia, Acoustic Samples etc - I am noticing that the third party providers simply dont provide all the parameters to Logic. Kind of throwing a monkey wrench into that immersive workflow I was hoping for. Is there nothing Logic can do to dictate for au plugin format sign off they simply present all the parameters on the gui?

 

My small sample size suggests that its the vendors with "players" that seem to suffer the most. Wondering if its because they dynamically present different controls depending on what preset or library you select in the player perhaps.

 

So ... again new to this - I guess plan B is to do use their midi learn feature but then I am not getting the parameter names on my controller display and it seems I have to reload them when I change presets.

 

And then there is the Logic midi learn feature - have not played with that - perhaps this approach preserves the mappings when you re-open the plugin and change presets and presents parameters or has some benefit over the plugin midi learn feature?

 

For those more immersed in the midi controller world what is your approach with logic to map to parameters for third party VI so you keep in your creative flow?

Well maybe I will shorten the thought/question - do you find third party instruments often dont present all the parameters to logic to control on your midi controller and what do you do about that?

Not all instruments publish all parameters as automatable, for many reasons - some things simply aren't automatable for performance reasons. You can often MIDI learn them using the plugin's features, or Logic, and if you can't do either of those things, well then there's not much you can do about it (expect maybe asking the developer to make those things automatable.)

Not all instruments publish all parameters as automatable, for many reasons - some things simply aren't automatable for performance reasons. You can often MIDI learn them using the plugin's features, or Logic, and if you can't do either of those things, well then there's not much you can do about it (expect maybe asking the developer to make those things automatable.)

And do you have a preference with the plugin's midi learn or Logic's midi learn.

The pitfalls is seems can be that you dont get the parameters name on your controller display so you dont know what you are controlling.

And some you lose the mapping when you open up project or new instance of plugin or even if you change presets.

Then there are those that dynamically change parameters when you switch presets/libraries.

One method work better than others so you can actually use your controller to control the parameters and avoid these pitfalls?

Have you considered Smart Controls?

Yeah have played with them - but too few of them - I would like to map to all the parameters and the typical synth has way more that 8 or 12.

 

Plus its the same problem - they only map to parameters that can be automated and the third party VI mfg will sometimes only present a few parameters.

As I said I think the only clunky way around this is to use the gui midi learn or logic learn but then there is the problem of the controller actually displaying the name of the parameter and/or having to load them each time you change a preset/library/project.

Bump one more time - for synth parameter control and not using wrappers (ie automap etc) whats best practice for mapping to midi controller - logic midi learn or plugin gui learn feature or other?

 

Assume all of you using a midi keyboard controller are doing this somehow - I am guitar player dabbling in midi keyboards catching up on this stuff.

 

Desirables:

1. See parameter name and values on controller
   
2. Preserve mapping on new project, plugin load, preset and library browsing
   
3. Map all the parameters not limited by 8/12 of smart controls
   
4. Dont have to load mapping each time

Note - went for Nektar Panorama P6 because of its tight integration with Logic and seeing and manipulating plugin parameters without wrapper including Logic's native instruments. Few months in I see the a lot of the big names in VI's dont present all their parameters to Logic so now I have to resort to the basic Midi mode of the Panorama which brings me back to question above.

Have you checked the documentation? 

Although it appears intimidating at first, it does contain useful information.

Have you tried the "Automatic assignment for USB MIDI controllers" in Preferences/Control Surfaces?

Have you checked the documentation? 

Although it appears intimidating at first, it does contain useful information.

Have you tried the "Automatic assignment for USB MIDI controllers" in Preferences/Control Surfaces?

Hey thanks - yeah combed through it. Correct me if I am wrong but the Automatic Assignments (which I have set up) is for the Smart Controls. And smart controls is not enought to handle the number of parameters of a typical soft synth.

Again I just want to simply assign all the parameters on the 3rd party soft synth to midi controller when they do not present them in plists/automation for my Nektar Panorma P6 and thought maybe logic soft synth users have been doing that with their midi controller.

As you probably guessed it, I don't know much about the Nektar Panorama possibilities. After browsing through its doc, it seems you could customize 3rd party plugins parameters to a certain extent, depending if the plugin is compatible. But that seems it has to be done manually for every one. Besides, it appears that the Nektar can manage up to 16 Smart Controls.

I think that Automatic assignment also covers some other parameters.

As far as I know, Logic's learn feature only allows mapping of parameters that Logic can see so it won't get you any further than the plist mapping methods Panorama uses.  

 

Logic sees parameters that a plugin makes available for host automation.  Some of the plugins you mention (UVI, NI) allow you to make parameters available for automation yourself.  

 

Where a parameter can not be seen by Logic, and the plugin presents no way to present it for host automation it is not possible for any host to access that parameter - this goes for wrapper based software too.  So then you need to put a case to the plugin manufacturer.  

As far as I know, Logic's learn feature only allows mapping of parameters that Logic can see so it won't get you any further than the plist mapping methods Panorama uses.  

 

Logic sees parameters that a plugin makes available for host automation.  Some of the plugins you mention (UVI, NI) allow you to make parameters available for automation yourself.  

 

Where a parameter can not be seen by Logic, and the plugin presents no way to present it for host automation it is not possible for any host to access that parameter - this goes for wrapper based software too.  So then you need to put a case to the plugin manufacturer.  

Thanks for reply. I have seen cases where there are more parameters listed in the automation drop down field than listed in the plist - does that make sense to you?

Mind sharing the basics of how UVI/NI etc can allow you to make parameters available myself.

Have you seen success in plugin manufacturer presenting parameters to Logic at user request?

BTW - just went for the Nektar Panorama P6 (was on Novation Remote SL MKII and wasnt thrilled with wrappers and fact you cant control Logic's native instruments) Have to say really impressed with its integration with Logic including instruments and plugin control and mapping and transport with hands on control of punch in and loop locators and appregiator and markers nav with drum pads and automation with the motorized fader. Really becoming the heart of my humble home ITB Logic songwriting/recording desk. Given its the only keyboard controller with this dedicated integration to Logic I am surprised there is not a bit of a community here talking through working with third party instruments like I am bringing up.

Also given its been a couple years since the last Logic update for Panorama, would like to see the Fkeys working again for El Cap and Sierra users and some of the Logic Native instrument mappings (e.g. Alchemy) that got broken with the latest Logic release. 

Thanks, it's always good to hear the hard work is appreciated.

 

Yes I have seen situations where the plist parameters are different from the drop down menu.  This is a particular problem with Alchemy currently.  This is why we have not changed that part of the integration yet.  

 

I'll raise a question with Apple to see if there is a method of adding automatable parameters to plists if they are missing.  

 

To add automation parameters in UVI, the Automation parameter list is in the tree.  Drag 'Host Automation #' onto any mappable parameter and then Logic will be able to see it.  On NI Reaktor, the automation parameters are listed in the snapshot menu (click on the camera icon in the left panel).  Host Automation assignment varies from instrument to instrument but it's normally a case of dragging parameters onto the automation slot, or the other way around.

 

You can use Logic's learn mode (CMD+L) to map any automatable parameter and this will cover parameters not in the plists, but like you say there's no feedback.

Thanks for checking in with Apple on that.

And thanks for instructions for NI and UVI - it seems that presents those parameters to automation for Logic but does not add them to plists for control with Panorama. So again another case where plist does not contain automation parameters.

Seems like all roads to the manufacturers simply including the paramters to Logic Plist. Wonder whats stoping them from doing this - its odd that there is a subset but not all of them. So they are doing it but they stop shot. I dont get it.

Just to add per Tim Chandler's suggestions, I have gone to NI, UVI, Toontrack, and AAS with screenshots of respective plist and the lack of parameter presented to see if they can fix this. Will keep you posted once they reply.

Well I reached out with screenshots to the following plugin manufacturers showing them the incomplete parameters in the plist file and asked if they could fix this and here are their replies in my words:

 

UVI - there is a rational behind this becaue DAW's dont support a dynamic number of host automation and gave an explanation of how to put the parameter into the automation lane but of course (me speaking) just because its in automation lane does not put in the plist. Happy to see an explanation though.

 

Native Instruments - simply said they will forward to product team. So I assume they see this as a product request - not sure.

 

Toontrack - told me they cannot talk about future developments - so I guess they are interpreting this not as a fix request but inquiring about their future prod dev. They did point out the upcoming Superior Drummer 3 release will be better set up for midi control.

 

Acoustic Samples - the lack of parameters in plist is due to the way they programmed it and suggest I use the midi learn features in the gui or use the UVI workstation it sits in feature to move parameters to automation like UVI suggested. Again automation parameters added dont seem to affect the plist.

 

Applied Acoustic Systems - refreshing response - they were surprised that some of the paramters were missing - should not be the case and will get in touch with programmer to fix who is on holiday this week. They had all of them except for delay and distortion effects (Lounge Lizard) and so seemed to suggest it would be easy to fix.

 

So there you have it - my humble attempt to get some of players to put their parameters on the plist so I can customize my mappings.

 

Per Tim Chandler's point if they cant add them to plist or dont want to it would be nice if Logic allows automation parameters to be presented to the plist. I understand he is checking with Apple on that.

 

One final note - again I am guitar player new to midi control but want to fill out my tracks - it seems the manufacturers that use players like UVI, NI, Toontrack have presenting parameters to plist issues - perhaps because for each library the player dynamically loads different parameters I am guessing.

 

So ... I did a bit of forum research to find best of breed keyboard VI's without generic workstation players for my categories - moogish synth, b-3, rhodes and piano - and found some top notch libraries that do not use a workstation player and present all the parameters to p-list so I can control them with my Panorama and enjoy the sounds. I kind of like this so I learn them really well - where and what all the controls do and focus more on music development than library hunting and I really enjoy their sound, ability to manipulate sound, the preset variety and inspired by them.

 

In case your interested they are:

 

Lounge Lizard - electric piano

 

GG Audio Blue3 - B3 organ

 

Pianoteq - Piano

 

Synapse The Legend - Moog

 

And having Alchemy as a wide ranging synth already mapped with the Panorama covers a lot of bases for me.

 

Time to stop teching out and back to creation.

Thanx for sharing your experience with the support services from the various plugin developpers.

I think understanding  your interest into programming patches from your controller. 

However, by experience I can tell you that, considering the outstanding numbers of available parameters to edit from a virtual synth plugin, versus the limited physical knobs / encoders / faders / etc available on a MIDI controller, you will rapidly find out that this discrepancy is counterproductive. As the implemented solution to alleviate such limitation (by distributing the controls on several pages) makes it unpractical, as it forces you to spend lot of time to navigate between the various control pages. Which in my opinion is breaking the creativity and inspiration spur. The obvious solution would be to hook up several MIDI controllers, but that will soon turn out to be a klunky one, considering that a synth like Omnisphere or Alchemy encompass hundreds of parameters... If I could afford it, and it was reliable and had some perennity, the Slate Raven would be my choice...

Thanx for sharing your experience with the support services from the various plugin developpers.

I think understanding  your interest into programming patches from your controller. 

However, by experience I can tell you that, considering the outstanding numbers of available parameters to edit from a virtual synth plugin, versus the limited physical knobs / encoders / faders / etc available on a MIDI controller, you will rapidly find out that this discrepancy is counterproductive. As the implemented solution to alleviate such limitation (by distributing the controls on several pages) makes it unpractical, as it forces you to spend lot of time to navigate between the various control pages. Which in my opinion is breaking the creativity and inspiration spur. The obvious solution would be to hook up several MIDI controllers, but that will soon turn out to be a klunky one, considering that a synth like Omnisphere or Alchemy encompass hundreds of parameters... If I could afford it, and it was reliable and had some perennity, the Slate Raven would be my choice...

Yes you nailed my intention here. Yes page diving it not ideal but in the spirit of compromise my midi controller (Panorama P6) has 9 sliders, 16 knobs and 13 buttons, 1 motorized fader and of course pitch and mod wheel for instrument real time control so thats a good deal of real time shaping while playing/creating songs without page diving and not taking my fingers off the keyboard and shuffling around with a mouse. I dont have the experience to be a synth sound designer so wont be page diving much except to tune up some of my favorite presets to my liking and then saving them as a preset.

So in that context while playing/song creating I would like to know what my 40 or so physical controls are and map the important ones to these knobs. And a single page dive is also not too awkward to get say 8 more.

And for organs, piano, rhodes its easy to accomodate the creative paramters onto one surface. And I can get most of the moog sims - Monark, The Legend - onto one surface with maybe one or two page dives when needed. In fact Alchemy with the xy pad and important filter and effects knobs like the simple gui on Alchemey itself can all me mapped on single surface for inspired playing/songwriting realtime while on keyboard.

Yeah saw the Ravens for a while - using Logic Remote which I really like for key commands, plugin/instrument assignment and preset surfing but man I do not like to adjust sounds with finger on glass. That mechanical connection with sound and fingers is something ingrained in me.

I could not agree more with you about holding and fiddling with the real deal of knobs and faders. "Glass" based controllers are simply of no match with the feel of hardware controllers.

 

However, the currently hardware MIDI controllers available nowadays represent a compromise, costing the extra work/effort of programming/mapping and additional learning curve to bridge on top of that, letting the user with his faith that those effort will pay back for long enough to worth it all.

 

Also, by experience, I found out that stop knobs and static (unmotorized) faders are of little use. You will realize that when going from plugin to plugin to fine tuning different parameters here and there, that only endless encoders and motorized faders are useful. The other types ones (stop knobs and regular static faders) could even become a nuisance sometimes...

I could not agree more with you about holding and fiddling with the real deal of knobs and faders. "Glass" based controllers are simply of no match with the feel of hardware controllers.

 

However, the currently hardware MIDI controllers available nowadays represent a compromise, costing the extra work/effort of programming/mapping and additional learning curve to bridge on top of that, letting the user with his faith that those effort will pay back for long enough to worth it all.

 

Also, by experience, I found out that stop knobs and static (unmotorized) faders are of little use. You will realize that when going from plugin to plugin to fine tuning different parameters here and there, that only endless encoders and motorized faders are useful. The other types ones (stop knobs and regular static faders) could even become a nuisance sometimes...

 I hear you Atlas (the Panorama has only endless coders and the static faders only adjust when picking up the parameter actual value and are very useful for B3 organ drawbars and synth filters on the fly)- sounds like you have been at it a lot longer than I have. The other route over mouse vs midi controller approach is a dedicated dsp driven keyboard like the Nord's - I was very tempted by them to take away the mapping/integration quest you mention and  have single dials per parameter. I went for the cheaper route with the Panorama P6 with the argument (perhaps to myself) that I will never perform with a keyboard - its only for adding tracks into Logic for songwriting - and the Panorama also has Logic specific Transport features like adjusting the punch-in, loop points, Logic's appregiator and of course sends, plugin effects and motorized channel fader on the fly while working out ideas and its hard to compete against that integration with an external keyboard where I probably would have to combine and physically pivot with a mixer type midi controller and the external keyboard to get that integration. And of course you have access to best of breed 3rd party software VI's moving forward rather than a closed dsp-driven keyboard - so not locked in.

 

See you have the Novation Remote SL MKII in your signature - just food for thought but I had that one and was really impressed with the onscreen automap parameter mapping feature and the abundance of knobs, buttons and sliders but the mapping bothered me for a few reasons - could not map Logic native instruments like Alchemy, my projects were all automapped wrapped plugin and in addition to the bloat of doubling my plugin count -  I felt vulnerable that automap would cease to exist or I just move on or I share project with a colleague who does not have automap. And also I am on the UAD platform with a lot of the plugins and notice that bypassing the wrapped UAD plugins would not release dsp resources on my apollo and satellite and they could not resolve this. Also felt all the knobs were too tight packed and I had to be dainty with my fingers and while playing/developing songs was awkward.

With the Panorama no more wrappers, more open physical layout for my fingers, motorized fader for automation etc, built in mapping for Logic instruments, Logic library presets button browsing and plist mapping tool that works kind of like the automap editing screen so I have customized all my UAD plugins paramters and of course the Logic hooks they have developed themselves for expanded transport and marker features. So a lot for Logic song development out of one controller.

But to the point of this thread topic - I am on the hunt for best of breed 3rd party keyboard VI's in my basic food groups - piano, B3, rhodes and moogish synth THAT ALSO present those darn plist parameters so I can map the Panorama and get that more immersive experience. And I have found them that have complete plist so now the quest is over and have these instruments baked into my Logic template. Until a better mousetrap emerges ...

Compliments to you both for the thoughtful exchange and discussion. Just throwing in a quick 2 cents...

 

I think Atlas007 has a really salient point re: the discrepancy between limited physical controllers and the hundreds of parameters available in most instruments. I've gone through scads of kbd controllers by most manufacturers over the years and the "layer flipping" and labeling issues (in some cases) just wore me down.

 

Your "glass" comments are noted. However if you want a great degree of flexibility, it's hard to beat something like Touch Osc from Hexler.net as it allows you to build and organize custom controllers for your instruments. Metagrid is also a great app though more focused on DAW control and macros as opposed to parameter automation.

 

As to the Raven, again it's glass. But I think it represents a direction things are likely to go as the missing tactile experience is counter balanced if not out weighed by the extreme convenience and capability. (Full disclosure, I just bought my second one.)

 

Anyway, just another viewpoint. There's a lot of good info in this thread. Thank you!

 

G

Compliments to you both for the thoughtful exchange and discussion. Just throwing in a quick 2 cents...

 

I think Atlas007 has a really salient point re: the discrepancy between limited physical controllers and the hundreds of parameters available in most instruments. I've gone through scads of kbd controllers by most manufacturers over the years and the "layer flipping" and labeling issues (in some cases) just wore me down.

 

Your "glass" comments are noted. However if you want a great degree of flexibility, it's hard to beat something like Touch Osc from Hexler.net as it allows you to build and organize custom controllers for your instruments. Metagrid is also a great app though more focused on DAW control and macros as opposed to parameter automation.

 

As to the Raven, again it's glass. But I think it represents a direction things are likely to go as the missing tactile experience is counter balanced if not out weighed by the extreme convenience and capability. (Full disclosure, I just bought my second one.)

 

Anyway, just another viewpoint. There's a lot of good info in this thread. Thank you!

 

G

Yeah my thought perhaps on ideal hybrid to capture the goodness of tactile knobs and the flexility of GUI on screen is something like pro tools dock but to have the actual GUI on the iPad screen and then touching the touch sensitive knobs along the side highlight the relevant GUI knob perhaps with a faint overlay line connecting physical knob with GUI knob for a second or two and given there is more GUI than physical knobs you touch the area of the GUI of interest and knobs parametersreflect that choice.

 

I kind of mentally do that when I am mapping the eight physical knobs - I think in clusters of eight across function and the layout of the GUI.

 

Fortunately I am not a sound designer and like more simpler vintage keys so I can get three clusters of eight on the single surface of my controller to capture the bulk of the parameters including the moog type synths.

Thanx sjgam for your detailed reply, which prove to be realy enlightening.

I could just agree with you about every gripes you mentioned about the SLMkII. At the time I had bougth it, that was the best choice. After reading your analysis, I start feeling the itch to give it a try... Just for the sake of clarification, you mention about endless encoders, how many of those the P6 is equipped with?

Thanks glad helpful. Yeah it has 16 endless encoders - 8 across the faders for sends, pan but also in instrument mode can be used for the VI. And 8 in the center section for more instrument parameters, inserts parameters and logic transport related function - logic loop and punchin and trigger marker nav on the drum pads.

 

Happy to answer more questions - I am new to it and not an experienced key or midi person. Or better yet start a new thread - Considering the Nektar Panorama for dedicated Logic Control as I see Tim Chandler from Nektar chimes in and there seem to be some seasoned Panorama users - one who developed the plist editing tool for the Panorama.

Also Tim Chandlers Sonicstate Videos on Logic and Panorama are quite thorough. The first one reflecting only a partial integration with Logic and then one two years ago when they had full integration. Just google Nektar Panorama and Logic and they will pop up.

But happy to answer any questions.

I'll raise a question with Apple to see if there is a method of adding automatable parameters to plists if they are missing.  

Hey Tim - on your thought of adding automatable parameters to plists - UVI got back to me and suggested that once you set up host automation parameters  with the UVI engine in logic as you describe then you simply save it as default and the plist file will reflect those new introduced automation parameters.

I tried it and on the first few and it did reflect in the plist file (using the Nektar plist mapping tool) but it stopped after the first few. Not sure why. I tried with Native Instruments and it did not update either.

Would be a simple solution if works for the Panorama to get plist reflecting automation parameters- could you try it on your system - see if you have better luck?