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Tuning a kick drum with flex, question ....


Trigue

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Hello everyone,

 

I am producing a psy-trance. Till now I used Instruments ( Samplers ) to tune my kick Samples. But after the new tuning features of Logic 10.3.2. I want to do the job with flex tool, cause I like the results, and to tune the kicks with a samplers, has some disadvantages, when using midi. 

 

I prefer to drop the audio file direct in the sequencer less work, than using a sampler to tune. 

I am really not sure about the kick drum what option to choose , it is a synthesised sound... 

I am doubting between Flex Monophonic, Automatic, Slicing.

 

Which one flex option is the best to tune the kick in to the key what u need?

 

10x in advance !

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I kinda understand why you don't want to use the sampler (I guess you're talking about the EXS24, right?), because there's a lot of steps before you can even start using it, but what about Ultrabeat? You just need to drag and drop. Probably quicker than using Flex and also, since it's still MIDI, you can always move things around quicker. Just a suggestion. If you still want to use Flex, then follow Benco's instructions: Flex Pitch only.
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Well, I don't  choose a sampler, cause the way of my work. When I am mixing I convert every sound in audio. Synthesizers and samplers, don't play every time the sound on exactly same key, there are some differences with some cents from the original key. They result some latency too, so I noticed it, converting it on audio regions and the sounds are  not exactly on the beat, when it needs.It can results some troubles in mixing.

 

I tried now the flex pitch, but it seems I lose a lot of high frequencies of the kick it sounds very different....

Probably, I will use automatic option in the future.  It is all about to tune the low end of the kick. Mids and highs of kick are not so important, cause I make usually eq cut on them.

I dont like ultra beat, cause it is a synthesiser, it don't simply play the original sample, it is syhtesizing him. Playing samples via ultra beat results a little btt different sounding on the samples. I use for my drum loops Geist2, this is the best drum sampler on the market, completely fill up my needs.

Exs24 is not bad sampler at all, but for kick drum I noticed, to get the result what I want, should mess around with the length of the midi note and with the envelope and than convert it to audio.... too much work time wasting. Better I create my own kicks with Sonic Academy Kick 2., too much work.... time wasting.... There are a ton of good sounding kicks around. Base line + Kick are converted in mono audio files on one mono group channel. 

But for some filter effect I use different stereo channel with recorded Base + Kick  audio region in stereo.

 

However, I use the same Kick as stereo audio file in one one ExS24 Kick instrument, of course the tuned mono kick (converted in stereo), when I am creating some kick rolls, or changing the kick pattern on some bars. These kind of audio regions are not so important element of the track, and they should be heard very shorten. When it needs, I make some editing to put them exactly on the beat.

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I think you're overthinking the whole process. First, Ultrabeat is not a synthesizer per se and it's not resynthesizing any sample. It's a sampler with extra features, such as synthesis. Import a sample both to Logic and Ultrabeat, record a midi note from Ultrabeat, bounce it in place and see that there's no difference in sound. Unless you're activating other features like the filter, the FM option (Osc 1), EQ, etc. If it goes straight to the output of Ultrabeat, it's the same sound. Just make sure that the envelopes are not cutting anything and you're good to go.

Second, as much as your eyes can see that a sample is tuned up or down 10 cents, your ear won't be able to hear it, especially on a kick drum. Maybe 50 cents, but that's 1/4 tone up/down and I guess your samples are already at a specific tone/note, not half way there. So if you have a kick that's tuned to C#, in Ultrabeat all you need to do is go up or down half tones and your kick will be good. Of course if you go an octave up or down, you will lose some information. It will sound different, because the sample is compressed or stretched, but if it's half tone or a whole tone, you're good.

The reason why I mentioned Ultrabeat is because it's faster, even if you want to bounce everything to audio. Just create the midi information with all the kicks in the song, tune the kick, bounce to audio. Instead of fixing one kick and duplicating it. 

Another alternative, of course, and you don't need any other third party plugins for that, is to create your own kick. Just sample the transients from the kick you want (usually something around 20ms or less), import it to Ultrabeat as a sample and then Osc 1 will be your kick's body (a sine wave that's pitched down using the envelope). You have to use envelopes to change the pitch, the same way the Kick plugin does. It's easier than people think. You can do the same with Alchemy, which is even better, because you can add a more complex envelope with the MSEG. As long as you learn how kicks work in terms of their body, you can create a lot of different kicks yourself and save them as presets and whenever you need to tune them, you're dealing with the original source ;)

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Oks, lets test it !

 

1. Original Kick drum in tempo 142 bpm, after rework it, is now in 138, in key between A# and B .

 

https://ibb.co/grwKW5

 

 

2. Tuned to F with Ultrabeat.

https://ibb.co/c2YcJk

https://ibb.co/dvw8PQ

 

 

3. Tuned to F with Flex Autoslicing.

https://ibb.co/kc6mB5

 

 

 

The question is where is my Sub gone when using Ultrabeat ? Isn't it all about that, the to set right that low frequencies together in Key with the Base line as a perfect kick + base sub, like a married man and woman

 

Edit: the Image don't work ....

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As I mentioned before, big changes in the tune using Ultrabeat or pretty much any sampler, will change its sound and that's because samplers change the length of a sample to change its pitch, and that's why I said that if you go 1 half tone or whole tone up/down, it's not that bad. Now if you go from A# to F (going down), that's 5 semi tones. If you're going up, that's even more.

 

Now going to the other point you mention, having the bass and the kick "married" (it could actually be 2 married men or 2 married woman too, right? haha), my personal opinion is:

Unless you have a tonal kick where you can clearly hear the note of the body, tuning the kick is useless. if it's a fast kick where all you hear is a thump, it doesn't matter if you tune it or not. That kind of kick is a waveform (usually a sine) pitched down very fast using an envelope so you don't even have a real tone, but a series of tones played very fast. Now if you have a kick with an audible tone, like for example when you have that 808 kick, then yes it makes sense to tune it, but in that case it will act as a bass, therefore, it's almost kinda useless to have a real bass playing at the same time as the kick or you will be dealing with duplicated information in the low end, creating some kind of phasing issues and/or creating some type of phasing effect (like a real Phaser plugin).

Now let's say the kick, even though it's super fast, had a tone (F) and your song is in C. Will you tune it to C? It will sound too thin so you might as well just leave it in F, even though it's not the key of your song. At least you will be preserving that low end, what hits you in the chest. Sometimes in music you can't be too "picky", if it changes how you hear it. After all, music is audible, not visual. If it sounds good, it sounds good. It's almost like when people want to change the volume from 1.3dB to 1dB as if it will change the sound, just because it's a whole number hahaha. Or making the automation snap perfectly to the grid. Sometimes the human touch, the imperfection, is what makes music organic and sound natural. So go with what sounds good, not what "is supposed to be" 

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Well, how I see it is a kind of working on genre music style. In the progressive psychedelic music, as a pretty new style of the psychedelic trance genre, there are some new issues on the baseline and kick. The most used baseline types are rolling base line from 3 notes ( kick first note, 2 3 4 note Base line )or off beat base ( 3rd to 4rd note ) from sawtooth or pulse wave ( mostly saw ). Where the velocity of the rolling base line is around 90 to 110 on the second 2 notes of the base line and from 40 to 60 on first one, the velocity is modulating the low cut filter to opens up of the base synthesiser. That kind of the tracks have mechanical sounding identical ( the same ) during the whole track pumping up kick and base, because the other elements of the track, appregios, leads, fx, textures, atmos, have the idea to bring a spacy feeling, robotic sounding to the listener. Even the voices, used in such kind of tracks, are dialogs from movies, games or some talks about science, space, universe, drugs and etc. And yes, it is all about the phase where, the sine from the kick on the second division meets(overlaps) the first note from the baseline ( saw or pulse ). Simply listen on youtube some progressive psytrance music and u will, understand what I am talking about, that K+ B should be married :) The gender don't count :) 
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Again, I think you're overthinking and using too much "math" when it's not necessary. A genre will not change the fact that if you have two sine waves playing at the same time, they will not sound more powerful, they will just sound louder (which you can achieve through volume) and you can find places where the low end is just gone, because they cancel each other. I understand that you have that pumping effect. I make electronic music as well and I know what you mean. Using a sawtooth, for example, as your bassline, what you need to keep is the mid and high frequencies to give that extra definition to the bass, but if the low end is there when the kick plays, you're just duplicating some information, with the danger of having phase cancelation. Filter the kick and the sawtooth all the way down to 150Hz. What you have is 2 sine waves playing, nothing else. So what you're doing is making that final sound, louder, so that means that at a particular point in time, when the kick and the bass play at the same time, you're having an increase of volume that's unnecessary, taking headroom away from your mix (not even mentioning, again, the phase issues).
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Well, if the track is key of F. I take that low frequencies of the kick 43-44 hz and boost it up. After that I boost up the base line around 87-88 Hz and this is loudest part of the base line. As a volume level the of the base line is 2-2.5 db lower than kick, if needs I set Multiband compression on Kick and Base and of course eq shaping. The point is I want that 1 octave higher wave from the base synthesiser, it is very important to fill up the sub, because normally I would cut a little bit the  the kick drum on 87-88 Hz, to create a space for the base line, and on the next octave I will completely make. deep cut. the mids and the highs of the kind  base line  are normally are lowered.
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I think you'll save a lot of time using a dedicated Kick drum plugin to shape your sound eg. Nicky Romero's Kick 2, Bazzism etc. Psy trance Kicks are quite easy to synthesize especially with those plugins, you can set key, attack/decay, sweep, add a click etc.

You don't need that, actually. If you know how those plugins work, you can recreate it with Alchemy. I did. You just have to get a lot of transients/clicks that you can use. One oscillator will have all transients throughout the keyboard (that's 88 keys = 88 transients) loaded as samples. Then another oscillator will be the body, it's a sine wave with an envelope (or maybe MSEG because it lets you have more points to shape the tail) to change the pitch. Since you have all keys assigned to different transients, you will need to go to the Keyscale of Osc 2 and set to OFF so when you play different keys, it changes the transient, but keeps the body intact in terms of note/tone. Once you have a good tail sound, you can manually change the pitch of Osc 2 to whatever note you want with the Coarse knob. ;) And you just saved yourself some bucks :P

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How about, I have preselected kicks, over 150 may be chopped from different sample libaries, in keys what I like F, E and D, or close to that keys ...:) I still really think spending time on kick creation is useless :) I prefer to spend more time on my Trillian or Omnisphere to create the base line and try my other favourite synths, for other important parts of the track  like a massive, Zebra, Serum or Dune2 or Spire.  However I never used the Alchemy, didn't like that instrument from the beginning. But, after apple took it, soon I will give it a chance, to check out what I can get out from it. :) But I will try to create atmospheres, fx or leads with it, definitely not kicks :) I think it can be more usefull there :) 

But for one ,  you both are right , spending more time on sound creation ( on the instrument ) will save you a lot of work in the mixing process. 

But when I don't like some frequency I simply cut it out, and if needs to fill up that hole I simply take the sound from another soundsource and layer it. 

For example I am tunning only the kicks, not snare highhats and other percs. Oks, sometimes toms, but I don't use much such kind a percsussion. I prefer to fill up the track  with synth fx than using percussion. When u travel on a space ship u don't hear bongos, toms, congs and etc. :) You are hearing squelches, alarms, noises and different kind of robotic, machine sounds :) 

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How about, I have preselected kicks, over 150 may be chopped from different sample libaries, in keys what I like F, E and D, or close to that keys ...:) I still really think spending time on kick creation is useless :) I prefer to spend more time on my Trillian or Omnisphere to create the base line and try my other favourite synths, for other important parts of the track  like a massive, Zebra, Serum or Dune2 or Spire.  However I never used the Alchemy, didn't like that instrument from the beginning. But, after apple took it, soon I will give it a chance, to check out what I can get out from it. :) But I will try to create atmospheres, fx or leads with it, definitely not kicks :) I think it can be more usefull there :) 

But for one ,  you both are right , spending more time on sound creation ( on the instrument ) will save you a lot of work in the mixing process. 

But when I don't like some frequency I simply cut it out, and if needs to fill up that hole I simply take the sound from another soundsource and layer it. 

For example I am tunning only the kicks, not snare highhats and other percs. Oks, sometimes toms, but I don't use much such kind a percsussion. I prefer to fill up the track  with synth fx than using percussion. When u travel on a space ship u don't hear bongos, toms, congs and etc. :) You are hearing squelches, alarms, noises and different kind of robotic, machine sounds :) 

Anything you learn in music is NOT useless. Learning how a kick is made, is helpful to understand other things. If you understand how a kick is made, you will understand what frequencies it's using and how it's shaped using the envelope. It helps you have a clearer idea of the content of a kick, beyond just its sound.

Also, if you create one kick, you have a base for pretty much all of the other kicks, you just need to tweak here and there and you're not changing any of its characteristics when you transpose, since you're dealing with the frequency of the body/tail. When you have a pure sine wave and you go up and down, you don't lose definition or the length. 

And why wouldn't you hear a bongo on a spaceship? Music is a constant change, if you now hear different genres e different sub genres was because someone one said "you don't hear this in this place, but I will create something that does". If you always do what's supposed to be done, because everyone does it, then you're just another one and don't really stand out as unique or innovator. That is applied to everything in life. Only those who think outside the box, change this world and bring new things to it ;)

But hey, if having samples works better for you and you don't think it's useful to learn how a kick is done, that's cool. Whatever works for you :) At the end of the day, it's the final result that matters and not how you get there.

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Of course, knowing musical thinks better and in small details is a big advantage. I can create kicks with any synth that I have. Sine, or Sine triangle kicks and use some noice as click hihat effect. In my kick  collection I have my own kicks too.. But I noticed, that I need a a lot of time  to create a kicks, sometimes week or 2. Not because I can't  create it, but because I am not sure about how it should sounds. For example, don't want to change it after 4-5 days again.

But I noticed, the best combination, in case that I don't have the right kick sample of my idea in my head, is when I create my own kick and with layer it with another ready kick sample.

Well, good composer and musician create their own world. It is drawing a picture of something, or drawing such kind of envoriment. And when the listener hears it, to feel that envoriment what u created, the story, what u as musician want to tell him. Of course, when someone talks to u, when he talks to you a bullshit u will not listen to him. :) The same is here :) As a musician u want to create a story, a picture and share it with the listener.... It will be more interesting if it's has a sence :)  I am not talking about the musical skills or the producing skills, it is all about how true your story is ...... :) and what brought you, that u want to tell that story  to the world.. behind and beyond the music... :) How I said for the psychedelic music , movies or games are good inspiration as a starting point :)

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