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PDC is killing my love for LOGIC


robreed2

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I never use software monitoring anymore (found an outboard fox unit is simpler) but still I get issues when I have adaptive limiters in the main output. That’s actually what led me here.

 

I guess I had issues when I used software monitoring for sending wet signals without knowing it. Never did any serious recording when I used it that way so never noticed.

 

Thank you for the wealth of information by the way. Stopped commenting when this thread went waaaay over my head (or realized that it already had been) but still following. And learning a ton (the parts I understand anyway).

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I also track through an Apollo. I get a solid input signal in Console with just a bit of preamp treatment, subtle eq, and ever so slight peak limiting. I use an "input record strip" in Logic that has stock eq/delay/reverb, etc. inserted (not bussed), just enough mix to add a bit of sauce for monitoring, always with Low Latency Mode engaged. Once I have the recording I want, I move it to an "official" channel strip with all the trimmings and bus sends. I would also add that it's important to employ efficient gain staging, so that when a plugin is bypassed for Low Latency Mode the levels don't go all wonky. It has never been possible to track with DAW instantiated UAD plugins (without impractical latency, anyway). Edited by cjsf
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I LOVE my logic and will defend it to teh end, but this is a problem...Ive spent lots of money on all these loverly UAD plugins, but cant use as they re intended....or at least without a lot of compromises...... Thanks for all your feedback and advice....

 

Jumping in on this post, I've not read everything here, but when in a hurry to keep producing and you want to keep that killer sound on your drums submix and have no time to mess around w/ PDC (and taking such time would kill your creativity / productivity instead), just bounce the whole drums submix to an audio track (that will burn the RME compressor into the audio on that track), mute the submix bus, hit Low Latency Mode (to get rid of any impact on latency that the RME plugin would have on the muted bus), and go ahead and record you guitars. Then after that mute the bounced drums audio track, unmute your bus, deselect LLM, and voila!

 

Very quick, non disruptive, you keep the sound as you want it it, and as a bonus you've now got a full drums audio submix in case you need it to redo the process again (like for recording other instruments). If the cuplrit, high latency plugin iis on an audio or instrument track (instead of an aux track), you can go even quicker by freezing that track (instead of bouncing it) and do the rest as I describe above (actually freezing is bouncing, you just need to hit one button instead of a few ones, is all, even quicker).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Bottom line: personnaly I never really try to solve PDC issues (also avoids me having to fully understand them), I work around them.

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  • 1 year later...

The amount of people in this thread who are downplaying these bugs or seem unaware of them is crazy (one such response from a 'certified trainer' even.. ??!). I realize we all use Logic differently, but anyone that mixes songs has run into it, and anyone that mixes song Professionally has simply moved to PT, Cubase, etc because these bugs are fatal and have existed forever and continue to exist (Logic 10.5.1 currently)

 

Here's a quick summary:

 

1. Automation in Logic (Pro X 10.4.8 at time of writing, but is still the case I believe in 10.5.1) is not plug-in delay compensated on audio/instruments tracks (but on aux tracks/summing stacks).

In other words, once you're working with latency-intensive plug-ins, even instruments (e.g. VPS Avenger) or just being an UAD user, your automation is basically out of order. This is also true for Logic's own Linear Phase EQ for example, no additional 3rd party plug-ins needed. Just automate a low or hi-cut, the automation will be nearly around 100 ms out of time in this case.

 

2. Plug-ins that depend on beat-time information (MIDI synced to the host) are simply not compensated on aux tracks/summing stacks (but on audio/instrument tracks)

In other words, if you are using something like Output's Movement, LFO Tool, Pumper, Effectrix, Cableguys plug-ins... , you name it, on an aux track/summing stack - timing of the beat-time based plug-ins will be out of order. I know several producers using a ducking or gate-effect bus for such effects - timing won't be correct then. This is also true for Logic's own Phat and Step FX for example.

 

3. Side chain signals aren't compensated correctly

The external side chain signal isn't compensated when introducing latency generating plug-ins after the side chain receiving plug-in on audio/instrument tracks (e.g. limiter after compressor with external side chain).

The external side chain signal isn't compensated when introducing latency generating plug-ins before the side chain receiving plug-in on aux tracks/summing stacks (e.g. tape simulation plug-in before compressor with external side chain).

If you are using the FabFilter Pro-L 2 with external side chain triggering for stem mastering for example, the side chaining will be completely out of time moreso when using one of the oversampling options. This is also true when working with Logic's own Linear Phase EQ and Compressor on one track using external side chaining.

 

4. Bounce in Place is not compensated correctly at all

Bounce in Place does not take automation and plug-in delay compensation correctly into account especially when bouncing aux tracks/summing stacks (see above). Pure chaos, depending on what is going on on your tracks and busses. External side chaining is ignored when using Bounce in Place as well. So you have to use the export track or bounce to disk function and drag your files back again into Logic, cubersome.

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No Jay, in this instance, it makes no difference - the latency compensation is just a bit bigger on the UAD plugins as the round trip to and from the card is longer, but the principles are all exactly the same.

 

The fact is that latency compensation should be, as much as physically possible, flawless under all the situations listed above, and if it's not, it's an issue that needs to be fixed (and is extra problematic in that it might affect the sound of existing projects, if they have been mixed to take these timing differences already in account.)

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I have a lot of friends who use other DAWs. It’s an issue for all of them, from what they tell me.

 

We're not talking about tracking with UAD plugins here, we're talking about Logic not handling PDC correctly under specific circumstances.

 

It's really not UAD-related at all, or issues that other people are having because UAD plugin have an inherently large latency is not what we are talking about here, and issues in other DAWs are not this issue here.

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  • 2 months later...

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