PDC is killing my love for LOGIC

Ok..perhaps a little OTT, but WHY can't apple sort this PDC thing out ...

OK a Standard part of mixing, group drums to a bus and stick a stereo UAD compressor on it, people been doing that for years and years..

Ok Im building up the mix, and I want to add a guitar and play to these new vibe drums.>!!!

 

OH I cant !>>>>>> PDC... Its out of time if you keep the bus compressor in, and its lifeless if you take all teh FX off... thats what Logic expects you to do...

 

PRO TOOLS Doesn't do this, Cubase doesn't, Nuendo doesn't .....WHY does apple think that we have to choose either MIX mode or tracking mode.

MADNESS !!!!!..

 

Ive used Logic since my ATARI ST.... and now been doing a lot more ITB mixing....Its horrendous..... logic PRO... "PRO" !!!!!!!!!!

OR am I missing something PLEASE !???

What latency does that specific plug-in add?

i dont think cubase/nuendo/protools have a way around plugin latency...

use a workaround if need be, a different compressor while you're recording; then the UAD when mixing. simple.

 

i had a 3rd-party plugin that was doing that (if it was active on any track, when i'd record a keyboard, the note would sound a second late... since fixed in later updates. but, at the time, i disabled that plugin until mixing, and got my work done.

i dont think cubase/nuendo/protools have a way around plugin latency...

 

Well, especially cubase does it better when working with complex signal chains.

In logic I have to turn on "low latency mode" to ensure that my recorded tracks are I sync, also that side-chaining between buses can be painful experience in logic. All this has been reported multiple times on this forum.

Lets hope for 10.5.

How specifically does cubase handle latent plugins?

It’s not really clear what specifically you expect logic to do differently.

There's a PDC bug with Auxes, but that's about it.

Please describe the aux bug specifically.

This post sounds suspiciously like TNM aka TTOZ complaining about automation latency again.... just sayin'...

Please describe the aux bug specifically.

 

i mean this

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=135038&p=714316&hilit=pdc+bug#p714316

That sounds like a side chain bug. I think aux pdc works fine but some other things like side chaining and external midi may have some bugs related to pdc.

 

I did a search this morning and found many people on the internet complaining that cubase pdc doesn’t work.

 

My impression is that latency in general is a complicated issue and there doesn’t seem to be an easy way around it. People seem to think the daw should be able to read their mind and figure how to configure itself to deal with whatever latency scenario you’re dealing with. However the truth is that the way to deal with latency always depends a bit on what you’re doing and you have to understand the software to know how to change configuration as you go in the best way. But my observation is that a large number of people become easily confused by all of that, myself included. Some better docs would help.

I've discussed something in the past on this very forum where it was explained to me that Cubase disables the plugin when delay compensation is constrained is enabled.. Whereas the same function in Logic bypasses it from processing the chain but still applies the compensation? Is that right?

 

I know REAPER allows you to enable/disable PDC per track, per plugin. I know it's not exactly the gold standard and considered a bit of an odd-ball DAW by many, but a nice concept.

Near as I can tell cubase’s “constrain” feature is identical to logic’s low latency mode. Their docs don’t provide much information. Logic also has the ability to turn off aux pdc or turn off pdc altogether.

that bug aside i also don't see a fault here

I could've sworn that i discussed 'how' logic only disables plugins, but Cubase disables them and that leads to cubase constraining tighter. But i can't find it, just been searching on here.

 

However, Dewdman, your name came up in every search i made with paragraphs of details, so clearly i'm just going to bow to your knowledge as you seem to have researched this to the nth degree beyond what i could ever dare!

 

As an aside, if i ever get an issue i'll just render down stems down into audio. It takes a minute vs hours of research of a problem that has no definite answer. Latency compensation is a bit like asking what comes first the chicken, or the egg. I guess.

Hey I’m still figuring it out too I just talk too much

thanks guys... OK... I just want to know why I CANT>..

 

Send all drums to bus ...then put a compressor on it, and leave it there, and carry on adding live instruments.//// simple really.?

If PDC is set to ALL, the over dubbed instruments are out of time, when played back....if you put LOW LATENCY on... you loose the compressor...

As I siad, its as if LOGIC wants you to be in either MIX or TRACK LAYING mode.... that is not the real world

 

You can do this in Pro Tools and not have to worry about switching PDC to ALL ,etc...or disabling the compressor and losing the vibe....

 

OR am i missing something..????

viewtopic.php?p=727518#p727477

Please describe EXACTLY, your complete setup and process in every detail including latency related preference settings, record offset, what kind of metronome you used to record your drums, whether or not the recorded drum hits ended up correctly on the grid or early/late, how you were monitoring when you recorded drums, etc

 

There is no miracle daw that eliminates latency. If you use latent plugins then you have to deal with them. Logic provides more options then cubase for pdc so perhaps you need to figure out how to work with it but it will depend on some of the factors mentioned above.

 

One thing about logic is that it seems to register midi and audio events into regions as you record them, based upon the latency you hear. So when you have uad on a bus, logic knows you’re hearing that late. Pdc delays all other tracks to match it so that you hear everything late, including the metronome and if you played to the built in metronome then logic understands when you actually heard it and then incoming audio you’re recording will be adjusted earlier in the track so that it lands where you meant it to land based on the metronome.

 

However if you are using an external midi metronome or if you are listening to your actual drum set rather then the delayed software monitoring, then it may calculate it wrong because it assumes then when you hear the software monitored sound is what you’re trying to line up to the metronome.

 

I’m not sure if there is a way to alter that behavior but that is probably where you are running into an issue. I don’t happen to like that approach either because I use hardware monitoring for a lot of stuff and I want logic to respect that the incoming sound relative to the metronome is what needs to be registered, not the outgoing software monitored sound. Especially if and when I’m using hardware monitoring.

 

By the way this issue effects not only PDC on a bus but also your audio buffer size, both of which create round trip latency between when you play your instrument and when the software monitored version comes back out again, which is what logic considers the strike time, rather the the moment you actually struck it. This is not a pdc issue really but more of a record offset philosophical issue.

 

The only workaround is to minimize both the audio buffer size and latent plugins on a bus while recording part. Unless someone knows how to disable software monitoring?

 

Use a different compressor on a bus while recording parts or use low latency mode.

 

As to what exactly cubase is doing I am unable to determine from their docs and confusing information on Internet forums. I would like to know also exactly how they handle all of the above.

 

You can also try in logic to adjust the record delay slider while recording with hardware monitoring, but then you need to know how much to adjust it, which is not trivial, but once you jot down some numbers for certain audio buffer sizes and bus latency combinations then you can slide that when you’re recording parts to adjust where in time they get registered to the region.

 

I agree this is an area of voodoo and the docs are poor about it. FWIW I see lots of people complaining when cubase doesn’t work as they would expect with pdc, but in different ways. They provide less options so it either works or confuses. Logic had options if you know what to do, but sadly most people don’t know what to do so they just keep Uad off their bus while recording.

May be of interest:-

https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003167103-Why-am-I-Getting-Latency-in-my-DAW-Sessions-

 

And it quotes "As long as you don't exceed the the limit of the delay compensation engine, this essential feature will keep all your tracks time-aligned and should always be enabled."

 

What/where is the limit in Logic? The limit in preferences>general is the threshold for low latency mode, right? i.e. determines which plugins it will disable.

 

PDC spins my head, i'd just render out that Drum bus and move on swiftly.

Uad is only factoring pdc and not the record offset issues. While mixing you don’t have to worry about record offset and so what they are saying is true, pdc will work perfectly fine even with very long latency in logic.

 

The issue that they don’t factor in their explanation and nobody really does, is the record offset strategy being used which

Might be different between daws. This is confusing for most people and I believe is what is giving the OP grief.

 

Most people just eliminate latency while recording to work around it.

Most of the daws don’t even document or explain exactly how their record offset is calculated, which adds to the voodoo

yeah really, most decent compressors are 0 latency or very low (sub 1ms) latency

Ok..Ill get more info tomorrow, when Im in front of the computer...(off the top of my head, buffer is 256...Im using RME Pcie card hardware and a Aurora A/d..

BUT Im using real drums, as audio that I can see are all in time with the internal click and to the grid....

Anything I want to add is played again to the internal click that is in time with drums..

I use external monitoring/hardware for any overdubs...so its O latency for what Im playing ......I just play to what Im hearing from the backing track...

An obvious thing I may want to do is to put a stereo compressor on the toms... for instance, then if I don't put PDC to all, the toms are out of time with the rest of the kit.

(I know I can set PDC to all and then its all in time, apart from when I overdub, then teh overdub is out of time on playback..)

This is with UAD or LOGIC compressors.... or I may want to do the same with Backing vocals..?

This is how people have made records for ever... then I want to add something on top.

What I cant get my head around is that If I use these bad compressors on individual tracks, then there is no latency on the single tracks....only when things are set to buses...

I watch loads of named producers putting loads of UAD, etc fx on buses and i wonder why I cant do this with logic... without compromising the way most people work....

Ill do more tests tomorrow and will get back....

I LOVE my logic and will defend it to teh end, but this is a problem...Ive spent lots of money on all these loverly UAD plugins, but cant use as they re intended....or at least without a lot of compromises...... Thanks for all your feedback and advice....

Edited February 5, 2019 by robreed2

Anyone care to enlighten me as to what PDC is?

Anyone care to enlighten me as to what PDC is?

Plugin Delay Compensation, it's when your DAW plays adjusts the audio playback to allow for the worst performing plugin chain in that project, it's goal is keeping all tracks in sync on playback.

 

What i believe it does is push back the other tracks to allow for the delay. i.e. let's say:-

 

Track 1 - 3ms delay caused by plugins

Track 2 - 6ms delay caused by plugins

Track 3+4 - no plugins

 

Logic (behind the scenes) will be doing the following:-

Tracks 3+4 will be pushed back by 6ms on playback

Track 1 will be pushed back by 3ms on playback

Track 2 (The worst) will have no adjustment

 

What that means is that they all play in sync.

 

But, it also means that metronome will click 6ms ahead of time, and the real time latency will increase, which isn't an issue if you're software monitoring or at low latency levels as you can adjust to it when playing, as you play to the sound. The problem arises when the latency is higher and thus has the affect of setting your Audio Buffer settings too high.

 

I think the issue that the OP is having is that PDC is pushing the real time recordings back when playing live to unplayable levels, so to fix by running low latency mode (Which disables the high latency plugins), they're also losing the sound desired to play along to. They want the best of both worlds.

 

I'm with Dewdman, in that, i don't know how other DAWs can deal with this... Because if a latency exists, what can be done to process things in real time AND be low latency!? The only true way is render the higher latency track to audio, and i'm sure no DAW is doing that behind the scenes, i.e. holding audio stream cache per track.

 

Apologies if i'm wrong, but that's always been my understanding.

 

I'm willing to bet that there's additional plugins somewhere (Such as on the master bus/stereo out) which is causing this issue to be vastly exaggerated. I can't see how a decent plugin like UAD compressor can extend PDC that much. But maybe it's a high tempo track? Or the plugin in use is particularly buggy. I really don't know. :-/

Hi Ski... the PDC does work...what my moan is that you have to choose between MIX and Track laying mode, with the PDC...I know I want best of both... its just the way Ive worked in the hard ware world for ever... you build your mix and overdub if needed to THE vibe mix... at the moment you have to disable any bus compressors ( or any other latency inducing plug in ) to add to a mix... not the ideal way to work.....again Im great full for any advice and desperate to find an ideal way to work

Well, if you're monitoring via hardware then one option you have is to place a recording delay in the preferences based on the current PDC allowance that you measure. I have to do this with my hardware on higher tempo stuff. But generally i let it sit.

 

Trouble is, if you're adding in high demand plugins that will change depending on the project and will be a complete pain to manage. The other solution is to adjust 'delay' parameters in the inspector bar, you can set this on a track or region basis from memory. I don't know how that would pan out longterm over the project though.

 

Surely the bigger issue here is why a compressor is adding so much latency? If you hover your mouse over the biggest culprit, what kind of latency does it give you?

 

i.e.:-

Ill check the UAD plugins tomorrow re latency..... Again I ask how PRO TOOLS does it and these producers just keep adding loads of stuff on their busses.... Ill also call UAD tomorrow and see what they say from their side of things..... THANKS !>