Does the competition have an influence on Apple Logic pro updates?

Cubase 10 pro is on sale for 50% less until june the third.

Do you think this promotion will have an impact on Apple? Will it put presssure on them to release a Logic Pro update very soon or they really don't care about competition?

No, they exist is a hardware-subsidized world and don't need to have to make a profit in the same way that Steinberg do, which rely on that revenue to keep the company going.

 

Apple generally does stuff on it's own timescales and priorities. That's not to say they don't keep an eye on their market sector and competitive products - they've got plenty of middle-management and product "owners" for that - and those things will influence development strategies to some extent.

 

But if you think Cubase's 50% sale will have an demonstrative effect on Apple's decision making, I'd say I find it highly unlikely.

 

Stuff gets released when it's ready, in general, is how Apple roll, even if sometimes they have to hustle to get it ready for market reasons.

Steinberg has various sales promotions for Cubase every year. 50% off is a signal that v11 might be coming soon.

No, I doubt it

The questions you're asking are very misleading (think "Are apples better than oranges or do all fruits taste the same?") so I had to break them up in order to answer them.

 

Do the competition has an influence on Apple Logic pro updates?

Yes, definitely.

 

Do you think this promotion will have an impact on Apple? Will it put presssure on them to release a Logic Pro update very soon

No, and no, definitely not.

 

they really don't care about competition?

Yes, they definitely do care.

its a very low price for Cubase and many people will get it at that price. But.. I had already bought cubase on cross grade his year for double the current price..and I can tell you that it performs like crap on my cheese grater mac. I did some careful and methodical testing with same project in both LogicPro and Cubase10. 100 tracks of VSL instruments + MirPro. Same midi tracks, same instruments, same configuration. Cubase10 uses 3x the CPU and actually it won't even play the whole project through without dropping out and eventually halting audio entirely. LogicPro uses 25% average system cpu for the same project and easily plays it all the way through.

 

Logic has the edge in performance, by a factor of 3x.

 

I have heard that newer macs run Cubase better then my 2012 cheese grater, but that's just a rumor I have no way to verify that. Maybe so.

 

Cubase does have some interesting features so frankly I do wish it would perform better and I would try to use it more and see what its all about, but for my uses, it cannot not even perform a basic task that is requirement to work at all with it. I think it would work ok for a smaller project with 20-30 tracks, but I haven't really tried to do that yet...

 

I also don't think Apple cares about what Steinberg is doing. I think Apple puts LPX out as incentive to buy macs and as far as they are concerned, if we buy either LPX or Cubase, it makes no difference to them as long as we buy a mac!

I also don't think Apple cares about what Steinberg is doing.

Of course they do, it's one of their major competitors. They would be foolish not to care.

 

I think Apple puts LPX out as incentive to buy macs

Agreed, and also to get users into the Apple ecosystem, so they don't buy only macs, but also iPads, iPhones etc.

 

and as far as they are concerned, if we buy either LPX or Cubase, it makes no difference to them as long as we buy a mac!

But a large part of the Cubase user base is on Windows. And in any case, whatever the reason is they continue to update Logic, they have to keep it current so it can compete.

Excellent reply David. Thanks for your time. I feel better now!

I don't think Apple views Steinberg as a competitor. I think they view them as a collaborative partner as long as they are developing for OSX. I don't think Apple makes any money from the sale of LPX. Its a loss leader in order to attract buyers to the OS X platform. If cubase also runs on Mac, then that only aids their efforts to sell macs.

 

poor choice of words when I said "don't care", of course they care, but I just don't think they see Cubase as "competition"

But where Apple SHOULD get involved is to actually HELP Steinberg to make Cubase run better on the OS X platform. It does not run very well right now and I'm sure Apple could help them improve it. If a potential user is committed to using Cubase, they are well advised to get a PC running windows at this point in time. I doubt this represents a significant portion of market share for Apple though.... but what do I know..

Greg Undo always do his live hangout Cubase youtube event on a Mac Pro, if that means anything...

happy for him. Cubase runs like garbage on my Mac Pro

I've previously owned Elements version of Cubase so jumped at the crossgrade when i saw the 50%. And, i'm really impressed with it the additional features in the Pro version - So really thankful for the sale, plus the boxed crossgrade i got came with dongle in the box so that saved another 15-20GBP/USD.

 

In regards to Apple, of course they take notice and it influences features but the two environments are quite different.

 

Anything that's lacking in Logic vs other DAWs i think Apple already know and many have code running in a test environment that's not passed release yet. 'How' they would go about the replicating tasks which Cubase achieves, i think the Logic team would implement differently and are on their own path to get there. We will eventually see that with their own interpretation of chord tracks etc. i think.

 

Right now i'm really pleased with Cubase, but it could be emperors new clothes all over again . My main reason if i were to leave Logic would be due to Apple hardware decisions on connectivity, price and performance issue, not on any form of stagnant development with Logic. While cubase has some nice workflow savers and tools for automating different tasks, it's overall interface requires more navigating than Logic, so it kinda evens out for me.

 

I'm writing some nice stuff with it so far though, and that's the litmus test for me - the final result of the music, and whether i feel relaxed when using it are all that matters.

yep. I'm very worried about future hardware from Apple also. My 5,1 MacPro has been working great until now. But i have heavily invested around the PCIe bus and anything totally new from Apple is going to be cost prohibitive for starters, not only because I expect the mac itself to be expensive, but also if I had to change other hardware due to missing PCIe bus.

 

Anyway, for me that will determine entirely whether I will have to leave Logic in a few years from now, I think we're good for a few more years anyway. But after that, unless Apple comes out with something as good as our cheese grater macs in terms of typical musician needs, then I will most likely have to switch to Windows PC, very reluctantly to say the least because I really can't stand windows and I do like LogicPro a lot, but I think that will be the likely case.

 

If I go to Windows PC, then Cubase or Repear are the two most likely replacement DAW's.

In fairness the new Mac Mini's probably knock socks off the old Mac Pro's in terms of raw power. But PCIe bus - you got a whole world of problems there my friend!

 

I thought i was bad for sticking with firewire lol.

eh ,my Mac Pro with 12x3.33 ghz is performing just fine... I don't know if a 6 core mac mini can out perform it. Maybe on one core, not necessarily across all, but whatever.. the main problem is that its cost prohibitive to change to thunderbolt everything..and I personally also like having all my HDD and SSD inside my cheese grater case as well...

 

And sorry but no, when Apple makes it impossible for me to continue working on this MacPro, there is no way you can convince me that a mac Mini will be as good as what I could build on the windows PC platform for a fraction of the cost. Unless Apple comes out with a decent macPro alternative, which does not look promising as of right now..then I am most likely heading to Windows PC, unless I do the dastardly and try to run a hackintosh for a while,

I thought i was bad for sticking with firewire lol.

 

Well PCIe has considerably better performance then firewire. But Apple got you on that one too. Thunderbolt3 has impressive performance no doubt but the problem is that certain kinds of devices still require PCIe. For a long time I was using my MOTU stuff, which still to this day trounces a lot of stuff stuff out there in terms of low latency performance. I don't use that anymore, but I do have a Lynx PCIe card that basically gives me a few milliseconds latency with my X32 studio mixer and I'm extremely happy with that setup. If I have to leave PCIe, I will have to not only change the Lynx card, but also the X32 and to what? it will cost me thousands of dollars and frankly may not get me as low latency as i get with this setup right now.

 

And there is always RedNet as a possibility for low latency audio, I'm not sure if they even have a thunderbolt solution.

 

The thing about PCIe is that devices exist to be useful on both Mac and PC platforms, and those will usually either be USB, Firewire or PCIe, with the latter being the most performant by a long shot. Thunderbolt is essentially Apple's solution for PCIe, but now you're locked into the apple-only sphere of what you can use. There are a few thunderbolt devices out there, but not many and not inexpensive. And just wait until you invest in that and Apple comes out with something new that then your thunderbolt device will be good for nothing.

 

And don't get me started about having hard external hard drives dangling all over the place...

Takes a brave person (financially speaking) to invest in the new Mac Pro's with impeding processor/architecture change on the horizon too. I think that's why the Mini's are so attractive, they've got such a wide appeal/userbase and they're a great option for average Logic user.

 

For people who've got work to do and they can't sit around and decide, that's crucial.

The Mac Mini's are not bad value for the money, no argument, just not really good enough for me and I think a lot of musicians will not be satisfied with that. Some will, many will not. I will not be.

I don't think Apple views Steinberg as a competitor.

Steinberg is not a competitor to Apple.

Cubase is a competitor to Logic Pro.

 

I think they view them as a collaborative partner as long as they are developing for OSX.

You fail to address my previous answer: Cubase has a large Windows user base. Anyone who purchases Cubase and a PC is a lost customer for Apple. For the very reasons you mentioned: they don't just lose a Logic Pro customer, they lose a Mac customer, a potential iPhone and iPad customer, a potential App Store customer, a potential iTunes customer, etc...

 

I just don't think they see Cubase as "competition"

They do, trust me. All major DAWs are competitions to all other major DAWs. Not seeing it would mean you choose to be blind.

Steinberg has every reason to compete against LogicPro. I do not think Apple has a reason to compete against Cubase. Edited May 16, 2019 by Dewdman42

I also went for the Cubase crossgrade for the reasons cited above. If this iMac dies on me sooner rather than later, I'll be so pissed that I will go PC. I can't afford €3,300 for a new iMac at this spec. That said, after a few days delving into Cubase, I honestly can say that I prefer Logic's workflow, but I've been familiar with that for 12 years, now.

For me, it comes down to what this computer does (I want 2 more years out of it, at least), and what my choices will be when it does go.

Some things to consider:

- CPU efficiency of Logic vs. Cubase on Mac: Logic is clearly the winner although performance of Cubase has improved around v9 or 9.5. The other Activity Monitor parameter to consider is Energy Impact: Cubase on Mac is a resource hog!

- As an observer, Cubase on Mac is less powerful but a smoother user experience compared to Windows. There can be a whole lot of misery and unexpected surprises on the Windows platform. The cost of a robust and stable Windows machine starts to parallel the cost of a Mac. The opposing argument is that the Windows machine will be more powerful for the money.

- As a user, the Cubase interface is laggy compared to Logic with some weird window resize issues. CPU ineffiency and high Energy Impact are worth repeating.

 

Hats off to Steinberg for their innovations that have influenced the development of all DAW. They have a strong personal connection to their user base. Cubase, and the SB virtual instruments are rich in features which are very enticing. A year or so ago, I seriously considered moving over to Windows. Over time, I changed my mind... no regrets.

 

Platforms and various applications exist to meet needs. Make informed decisions.

There can be a whole lot misery and unexpected surprises on the Windows platform. The cost of a robust and stable Windows machine starts to parallel the cost of a Mac.

While i held this thought myself, i now don't believe this to be true, it may have been true in the past (Re: stability) but a budget i7 PC can match a high end (or should i say highly priced?) mac in regards to stability and performance - no problems.

 

I've been running Win 10 since end of Feb for Audio, Application Development and Video Editing and i've not had one single crash or oddity occur - it's been flawless. I was expecting to hate the experience as i've been in the Apple eco system for so many years. But it's been a pleasure, and i'm really relishing the freedom to upgrade the components when and as i choose. In fact, lack of a decent trackpad for Windows has lead me to using a kingston trackball now, and i'm loving that too, which is a bonus!

 

The demands for an Audio machine just aren't that high anymore, you can do so much on a reasonable spec machine and the plugin architecture is well matured, i don't think hardware manufacturers (Motherboards/CPUs etc) even consider Audio Production as a major concern anymore as it will just run on any standard machine.

 

Apple feel this way too, they don't need to focus on pro/sumer markets in regards to hardware, they know that style and security is there identity - and since using Windows, i can see why. As the experience (If you can work within the windows workflow) is neck and neck, but windows telemetry freaks me out a little AND it's hard to find windows devices that match the build and style of Apple.

 

CPU efficiency of Logic vs. Cubase on Mac: Logic is clearly the winner although performance of Cubase has improved around v9 or 9.5

I've been thinking about the whole Mac/PC Logic/Cubase thing - as i'm on that path myself. And what i've really learnt last week or so is that technical specs and CPU efficiency charts doesn't really matter if you're not experiencing real world issues - if you're using tools that enable you to record/produce the best possible version of yourself, that's what's key.

 

So far, even though i'm tripping up with Cubase workflow, i'm writing some really nice stuff with it. And that's all i'm going to measure it on. There's stacks of additional tools for songwriting, like the chord and progression tools, and much of the included libraries seem fresher, even the stock amp sims are nice - this is what matters for me, it seems to deal with MIDI exceptionally. Personally, i'm done with getting caught up with the technicalities, checking latency, comparing DAWs, setting up MIDI controllers etc.

 

I just want to get back to the music.

 

...My opinion may change when it comes to mixing a track that i'm happy with though lol

I've been running Win 10 since end of Feb for Audio, Application Development and Video Editing and i've not had one single crash or oddity occur - it's been flawless. I was expecting to hate the experience as i've been in the Apple eco system for so many years. But it's been a pleasure, and i'm really relishing the freedom to upgrade the components when and as i choose.

 

It can be a smooth ride. It just seems like there are more surprises with each W10 update and same for Cubase updates. For some - no issues, for others - headaches.

 

But it's been a pleasure, and i'm really relishing the freedom to upgrade the components when and as i choose.

That is a clear advantage that users of current Macs no longer have.

 

Personally, i'm done with getting caught up with the technicalities, checking latency, comparing DAWs, setting up MIDI controllers etc.

 

I just want to get back to the music.

 

Funny thing is, I reached the same conclusions.

I've been on and off the Steinberg path but find that I can concentrate on the music much better in LPX. That's the end result of my personal explorations.

Steinberg has every reason to compete against LogicPro. I do not think Apple has a reason to compete against Cubase.

My point was that the products are competitors, not the companies.

 

In my mind it's not about "competing against" per se, it's just about knowing your competition. If you're publishing a DAW software, all other DAW software is your competition. And it's a good idea to stay aware of the innovations brought to market by your competition and how the market reacts to those innovations, in order to determine wether or not to include them in your product, to improve upon them, or to find an even better solution. Most of the technology included in Logic Pro was inspired by technology that was present in software published by the competition.

 

Competing doesn't (necessarily) mean being scared of, or wanting to annihilate your competitors. It can mean just staying aware of the market and being influenced by it, which was the original question of this topic.

It can be a smooth ride. It just seems like there are more surprises with each W10 update and same for Cubase updates. For some - no issues, for others - headaches.

I also disagree with that - particularly if you're suggesting that MacOS doesn't have such surprises.

 

From an audio viewpoint i'm far more hesitant to upgrade MacOS than windows*, because Apple have a history of changing the base foundations AND raising the minimum spec with each OS release, causing hardware and peripherals to stop working. Audio Unit specs also are subject to change with very little warning which can render a companies entire plugin unusable for the first few months of updates because they are at the mercy of the AU wrapper developer to get things sorted.

 

It's so common to read threads on here with people asking if it's 'safe' to update, and Apple then uses their apps (such as Logic) to further force you into OS updates - and after you've updated and got everything working... There's really not much difference and you wonder why you had to jump through hoops.

 

Nearly 4 Years ago Win 10 was released - in that time Mac has seen El Cap, Sierra, High Sierra and Mojave as considerable yearly updates. Throughout that upgrade cycle numerous MacBook, iMacs and Mac Pro's have all fallen by the wayside - these aren't small updates, they're significantly killing hardware - i don't see the same on the windows platform, what Apple do is basically a culling of old hardware.

 

*Windows, of course, likes to just update itself when you nip for a coffee.

Very interesting thread!

So now I'm confident that the Logic team is very aware that the Cubase Chord track is a feature we would like to see (back) in Logic and as powerful as cubase. A so handy and useful feature, for me at least.

 

I prefer the Logic workflow and Cubase Pro lacks an intelligent drummer and I'm not in love with Halion Sonic, but hey Apple, give us back a chord track feature as powerful as the on in Cubase!

What's is the chord track feature? What does it do, and how does it help when I'm already playing the chords I want to play in my song..?

Well, des99, a youtube video worth a thousand words!

 

 

I also enjoy the chord pads feature and would be happy to see somtehing similar implemented in Logic