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Logic devs: you have a safety problem


braindongle

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Yes, of course there´s feedback issues or system errors of unknown origin causing noise bursts in any DAW - - BTW, I´m not sure but I think that Cubase has a native automute function - - but it´s possible that it´s also a bug in Logic.
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yeah. issues i had went away with M1 tho.

 

also when it happened in my case, automute didn't help.

you have an "auto-mute" built into logic anyway. Load Gate, set to "duck" and threshold to 0dB. Anything over will dip signal for 100dB which is enough.

 

but in my case logic's engine broke and burst came from logic not from a channel strip

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If it is found in other DAWs also, then I'd say the problem may be in the hardware. Too bad we can't get a comprehensive list of IC's used in audio interfaces.

I do remember over at Apple discussions there was an ENORMOUS thread about this, possible the longest ever on the Logic forum there. Some rigorous sleuthing was done by some top people, and they came up with that there was absolutely no common ground to be found between the reports: all different plugins, some projects with only Logicv plugins, some projects with just one track, some plugins loaded, all kinds of different Macs and even some Hackitoshes, all kinds of different versions of OS X and of Logic... all kinds of different interfaces, Firewire, USB, PCI-e, up to and including even the built in audio of Macs.

My money for now is on something being fishy with one or more of the IC's in audio interfaces. Would be nice to find out if there are components that are common to all audio interfaces used in the reported incidents.

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IMHO

There may be many triggers which make this a difficult one to pin down -

but it IS dangerous for our key instrument - our ears.

I've replied over 10 years now to the Noise Burst topic...

The time I fried my expensive Quested Monitors it was down to an audio file calculation alone.

I had a LOGIC project with one audio track only, no plugins, no extra processing on the Channel Strip and two non-contiguous audio files - there was a small empty gap between them.

There were no problems playing back each individual file.

I used the glue tool and BAM - off the scale white noise - I should have seen it as it rendered the new wave file as a White Block, no obvious digital stepping in the wave form.

Unfortunately for me I had glued the two files and hit play... I've NEVER done that again - I always now watch to see what is happening with audio on screen.

 

I have asked myself what was different about my setup - and I can't come up with any explanation other than something failed in some way when calculating the new audio file...

There was some processor exception that day, and obviously there could be any amount of reasons for that.

I still believe that there should be a fail-safe device built in to stop a computer feeding such an audio blast into the external world...

Until then, ice9 does the job for me.

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"I used the glue tool and BAM - off the scale white noise - I should have seen it as it rendered the new wave file as a White Block..."

 

This sounds like a bug in Logic. BTW, I think that someone mentioned somewhere about similar situation, when joining regions? Was it in some old threat here?

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ICE9 is no longer available.

Another person suggested using the noise gate on the output.

If this noise is on the output, that would work, but I think it's internally generated, not a result of track audio. I'll try it anyway.

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ICE9 is no longer available.

Another person suggested using the noise gate on the output.

If this noise is on the output, that would work, but I think it's internally generated, not a result of track audio. I'll try it anyway.

 

It´s still available, I used link provided by David and it works fine. Also, just for curiosity I purchased this: https://nugenaudio.com/sigmod

 

It´s not free, 54€, but SigMod has the Protect module that works exactly like Ice9, it´s even little better than Ice9: the threshold range is wider and there´s several protection modes available.

 

But there´s much more in it. I was surprised to found out the clever and easy-to-use routing capabilities it has; for instance you can separate stereo channels, swap channels, mute left or right, listen your mix as a mono, route channels for side-chaining, detect Dc offset, etc. Also, you can split the signal with Crossover module at specified frequency, for further processing. If you use it in conjunction with included Receive plug-in you can do even more. SigMod is for a DAW what tuning kit is for a car.

 

I would add to this that car tuning starts from suspension. What I try to say is that SigMod doesn´t make your Mac faster, but it brings out some hidden capabilities of your DAW in a simple and user-friendly form. I know that this sounds like advertising, but I really like it.

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Thank you for the link and info about ICE 9 and SigMod.

My recording computer is off-line, so I'll have to wait until I can connect it to download the plug-ins.

Question about Logic's adaptive limiter and/or noise gate:

would they work in this context?

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2076804966_Screenshot2021-06-02at20_34_16.thumb.png.255f3a16f49a1d336be17cd7d95f262f.png

Thank you for the link and info about ICE 9 and SigMod.

My recording computer is off-line, so I'll have to wait until I can connect it to download the plug-ins.

Question about Logic's adaptive limiter and/or noise gate:

would they work in this context?

 

You mean in master bus? Just set up the threshold of SigMod or Ice9 high enough, like in above screenshot.

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@Chatka

"I used the glue tool and BAM - off the scale white noise - I should have seen it as it rendered the new wave file as a White Block..."

 

This sounds like a bug in Logic.

I actually don't believe it is a LOGIC bug.

I agree that LOGIC users are obviously experiencing the Noise Blast output, but not everybody, and always in different circumstances.

I haven't replicated that glue tool behaviour since - as I said in my post:

 

I can't come up with any explanation other than something failed in some way when calculating the new audio file...

There was some processor exception that day, and obviously there could be any amount of reasons for that.

IMHO there is something at a more global processing level that is intermittent and dependant on some, as yet, unidentified trigger.

:lol: Or as one of my friends likes to say: 'it was a stray muon from the universe that decided to hit your digital processor - an intersection of Einstein Space-Time or Dark Matter that got lost' :lol:

I have modified my workflow and installed 'ice9' set at '-1dB' onto the 'Output' and 'Headphone' Channel Strips in all my LOGIC templates - and there has been no recurrance of the problem for me.

HTH

Edited by Frances O
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So, the adaptive limiter and/or the noise gate in Logic should work, or are you suggesting that the "fuse" effect of SigMod is required?

 

Usually you don´t use noise gate on a master bus, so that´s not the problem - and even if you would use it on a master bus, no matter. Limiter works as expected, since the "fuse" effect is not an effect. It doesn´t affect signal in any way, it only cuts signal in a threshold point. So that´s why you should insert the "fuse" after limiter in signal chain.

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"yeah. issues i had went away with M1 tho."

 

M1 or Big Sur? Could be also the new OS that fixed it, in your case. Or did you already use Big Sur in Intel machine?

already went big sur on intel machine.

Pulsar Mu was problematic in my case (actually most oversampled plugins were problematic - Mu was just the easiest to trigger)

It went away on the M1 for some reason.

both fresh installs.

bizarre if you ask me.

 

ICE9 is no longer available.

Another person suggested using the noise gate on the output.

If this noise is on the output, that would work, but I think it's internally generated, not a result of track audio. I'll try it anyway.

 

if it's internally generated (it was in my case) - so a product of audio-engine killing itself, then NO plugin on the master bus will help.

This only helps if a plugin misbehaves on a track and goes to the outputs.

in my case it's a nasty DC offset when engine dies and when it does, logic outputs +24dB of DC offset and a pop accompanying it.

 

setting noise gate to "ducker" will work as a breaker, if signal goes above 0dB it will duck it for 100dB. It's usually enough.

 

Even limiter would be at least a bit helpful - because logic since 10.5. can output over 0dB (new from 10.4.) so it can indeed send +24dB out to the sound card.

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Ice9 can still be obtained. Here is another link for it in case anyone doesn't have it: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145531&hilit=ice9#p757888

 

SigMod is a great little product, but for this particular issue keep in mind that it imposses a small amount of latency for this particular fuse feature. (less then 1ms, but still...). And its not free.

 

Ice9 is actually perfect for this use case, I have it in my main default template.

 

Regarding other suggestions to use limiters, etc..that can also work...but generally its not a good idea to put a limiter on there for this purpose because it starts to mess with what you're hearing everywhere in your mix. You could have synths with levels set way too high, and you wouldn't know it because the limiter would be blocking it off, etc. Its better to keep a limiter off the master until final stages of mix or during mastering. That way you hear your instruments and go adjust the levels on each instrument channel like a good engineer should do.

 

Unfortunately that means the software glitch from hell that many of us have encountered at some point or another will rear its ugly head...and if you don't have a fuse...it could literally give you a heart attack, I'm not kidding.

 

Ice9 or SigMod will solve that issue without messing with your mix the rest of the time.

 

I personally think Apple should build this kind of feature into the App or at least provide an option for it. But somehow I think people would then complain "why does the audio keep cutting out for no reason?!?!". On top of that, this kind of noise is just audio. How is logic itself supposed to know if there is some hiccup with plugins or something..if the audio buffer is filled with loud white noise that was intentional or not intentional? Its just some audio as far as Logic is concerned, it just happens to be undesired audio for whatever the reason.

 

I've had this issue more with LogicPro then my other DAW's, FWIW, but you can find many posts on the internet about people with different DAW's running into it now and then. It hasn't happened to me in a long time and so I don't know why. I do keep ice9 on my master bus now, but if were happening then I'd be hearing ice9 fuse cut off my audio sometimes, and it really hasn't happened in over a year for me. But I am sure that sooner or later it would, and it would literally scare the bejesus out of me...if not kill me through cardiac arrest...so....I leave ic9 on the master of all my templates.

 

Anyway, ice9 is the right solution....or SigMod..if you can tolerate the extra latency and like the extra features and don't mind paying.

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Thanks for the suggestion; how do you know what caused it in your case?

Is it possible that there could be several causes?

If so, how can I determine the cause in my case?

process of elimination :/

yes it is possible.

when it happens check the last 5 plugins you added to the project - remove them one by one and try retriggering the issue

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It happens when using the loop function with automation.

I automate the volume, panning, and sometimes a compressor, using the loop to listen to the changes.

It may not be plug-ins, I don't have 3rd party plug-ins and don't use many native ones that are CPU intensive - rarely as many as 5 total on a track, usually EQ, comps (often 2) and bus to reverb. I monitor the CPU load, it's usually very low.

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It happens when using the loop function with automation.

I automate the volume, panning, and sometimes a compressor, using the loop to listen to the changes.

It may not be plug-ins, I don't have 3rd party plug-ins and don't use many native ones that are CPU intensive - rarely as many as 5 total on a track, usually EQ, comps (often 2) and bus to reverb. I monitor the CPU load, it's usually very low.

 

Possibly related to feedback?

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Don't know the origin, was hoping someone who had a deeper knowledge of digital technology could point to the cause. Bug in Logic?

The "fuse" concept on the output sounds like it might not work, I think the problem is not related to the audio tracks but related to the processing system.

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