Converting Bars of a Beat Map

A project I was given to work on involves producing a score of a latin song which had already been imported into Logic and Beat Mapped ( not with Smart Tempo but the old fashioned way - ie with tapping in a midi template of beats).

The person who Beat Mapped the song did not realise it was a Cut Time feel so put in a single beat ever 2 bars - but counted that as one bar.

The problem now is that writing the score produces 4 x beats to the bar with 16th notes - instead of 2 x bars of 8th notes.

A lot of work has already been done on the Project and I could just delete the Tempo Map and start again.. HENCE THIS QUESTION:

How could I convert the whole Project to 2 bars for everyone bar that exists without changing the Tempo and retaining the Scoring that has alread been done, but halving all the values ( quarter notes become 8ths etc)? Is this possible?

Do you need to retain the tempo fluctuations captured in the beat map or is this really just for the score ?

I need to retain the tempo fluctuations so that bars correspond with the audio track... there is no point working in this way unless the bars align perfectly with the audio

I'll ask differently - are you going to mix and finish this very project or is it work material to get the score as the final product ?

The Score is the final product - imagine a track from a CD imported into Logic - Beat mapped - a lot of work done on the Score fleshed out to an arrangement, but the initial Beat map was wrong in the way I described originally...

Ok, great. So you have one Audio track and many MIDI tracks, right ?

- Right-click the Audio Region(s)>Tempo>Remove Original Recording Tempo (this step should not be necessary, but it doesn't hurt and sometimes it doesn't work without it)

- Right-click the Audio Region(s)>Tempo>Write Project Tempo to Audio File (this embeds the current Tempo Map into the audio files, mandatory for the next steps)

- Enable Global Flex View and Flex (polyphonic) on the audio track and possibly Flex & Follow on the Audio Region itself (its colour should change but its timing must remain intact)

- Check that audio and MIDI are still in sync, at the original, fluctuating tempo.

- Now open the Tempo List and remove all but one tempo changes at exactly bar 1 of the music and set that to an average, easily dividable value (this may or may not sound weird but will not show up in the score anyway)

- Check that audio and MIDI are still in sync, at a now constant tempo.

- Bounce In Place the Audio Region and turn off Flex on the BIP

- Select All Audio and MIDI Regions, then right-click Region>SMPTE Lock>SMPTE Lock Position (this locks everything down where it is)

- Now change the single remaining Tempo Change to half its value (now the score will be right)

You can now continue to work on the score. If the now static tempo bothers you, then:

- Select All Audio and MIDI Regions, then right-click Region>SMPTE Lock>SMPTE Unlock Position (this releases the lock)

- Right-click the BIP>Tempo>Write Project Tempo to Audio File (this embeds the new Tempo Map into the audio files, mandatory for the next steps)

- Enable Flex (polyphonic) on the BIP audio track and possibly Flex & Follow on the BIP itself (it's colour should change but its timing must remain intact)

- Change the Tempo list to your liking

Thanks for this great tutorial ... ! I have got the weekend work cut out now and will report back

PS if I may just ask a side question here which may relate to your explanation: is the process you describe below what one might do to 'quantise' the audio of a project ( I am thinking of an album I produced back in 2004 and the whole band was sometimes ever so slightly dropping the tempo now and again - ( not in a good way, ie not a musical fluctuation of the time but a consequence of lack of concentration, and it has has always been in the back of my mind to find a way to quantise all the stems to tighten the groove and make it editable as if it was played to a click which it wasnt then. So this side question is more of a new topic ( not related to Score Editor or parts producing). I did ask this question on LPH before but no one answered.. )

Thanks again fuzz for your expertise !

I have got the weekend work cut out now

Actually it's more a matter of ten minutes, five if you're quick. Yes, I know, that's what she said, but still...

is the process you describe below what one might do to 'quantise' the audio of a project

Yes, as long as the performance was tight across the group.

@fuzz - Since last posting, I have printed your instructions and could not get the outcome I needed. Though let it be said this was a very interesting exercise where I learnt about parts of Logic I have never delved into ( ( Plus your most recent answer to my question indicates that the technique you describe would be great for quantising audio in the way that I have always wanted to - and to answer your point: yes the band was pretty tight with each other).

But coming back to this issue ...

.. I started a fresh project and Beatmapped the audio again with the correct bar placement.

(If anyone wants to check out the Projects there is a folder with 1 - Original Project 2 - My attempt at Fuzz's suggestion and 3 - the Correctly beatmapped new project )

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lpz54evzwqrfb5d/AACFfE49DrjL2sX_frL35e3ea?dl=0

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The screenshot below is a combination of Project 1 below & Project 3 above. The bottom photo is the incorrect harmonic rhythm - it does not have the two feel needed for correct latin chart ( with cut time and 8th notes). To do the arrangement in that chart the notes would have had to be written in 16th notes.

The top photo 3 shows the correct harmonica rhythm in relation to the audio - ie 8th notes for the chart.

Both projects play at exactly the original tempo of the CD track - I have not needed to change or quantise the original tempo.

Hm. Unless you tell where it stopped working, there's nothing to suggest.

Since I'm doing this kind of stuff daily, I even set up one project just to write down the steps verbatim, as it's mostly muscle memory here . So I'm confident it works.

Also, in your first post, you state you want quarters to become eights, which implies halving the tempo if it should sound the same. But in the last post you change 16ths to eights which needs double the tempo. Is that it ?

Hm. Unless you tell where it stopped working, there's nothing to suggest.

I am not sure where it stopped working... am unable to say as the whole process you suggested was so new to me compared to the areas I normally use in Logic. If you are curious - perhaps check out the Project 2 ( in the link I posted) which was my attempt to carry out your suggestion. It could be that I did something completely wrong and didnt notice.

Since I'm doing this kind of stuff daily, I even set up one project just to write down the steps verbatim, as it's mostly muscle memory here . So I'm confident it works.

.. I am sure you know exactly what you are doing - and I really appreciate the time you took to put down the instructions, which I have printed out and experiment with. This has been of massive value to me, and also answered my longstanding question about quantising audio.

The key question I was curious about is whether - receiving an existing project with some Beat Map work done for Scoring purposes, that the project could be altered to move the Beat Map and Scoring grid in relation to the original audio - or - if it was quicker to simply do a new Beat Map with a new bar to audio relationship ? I would say that on balance it is quicker for my purposes just to do a new Project and Beatmap it as I wanted ( ie my Project 3 in the link).

I am not saying that your method so painstakingly notated would not do what I want - but personally I cant answer that yet - you would have to spend some time producing a project that demonstrated the result I am seeking ( if you were so minded to do!)

But in terms of workflow it would take me a long time to get it into my muscle memory your method ( in the way that like you, there are many aspects of my Logic workflow which operate at high speed).

That said I have learnt many things from your instructions which have ramifications for using Logic in ways that I never considerd eg: strange as it may seem I was not aware that Tempo information could be 'burnt' or 'memorised' into Audio... though this may seem as obvious to some posters here as switching on a light switch.

My own use of Logic is strictly around - Scoring, Recording single audio tracks, or overdubs to existing project Editing audio that has been recorded in a studio or composing via a mixture of audio recording and midi/score stuff, producing arrangements charts etc, teaching material, preparing raw audio files and projects for mixing by a third party. I do not really do 'Audio production' in Logic.

Also, in your first post, you state you want quarters to become eights, which implies halving the tempo if it should sound the same. But in the last post you change 16ths to eights which needs double the tempo. Is that it ?.

I may have been unclear in what I was describing - imagine you are reading a chart which is supposed to represent cut time feel ( ie 4/4 but with a basic two feel - and the main subdivision is 8th notes) - it would be possible to represent the same amount of music - measured in seconds at the same tempo - by 2 bars or 1 bar.

If two bars then the count is in the correct 2 feel with 8th notes ( ie with one chord in each bar)

If one bar then the count is in the wrong feel with 16th notes ( with two chords in each bar).

That was what my screen shot was trying to illustrate...

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But to round off - there is a limit here I guess for all of us on the forum as to how much time one spends exploring areas of using Logic not strictly related to one's own direct experience, or the job in hand. ( And I imagine from your comments that it has not been worth your looking at the 3 Projects I posted a link to --- which is fine by me!)

My last word is that I really appreciate your time... !

I'm not sure what the status of project 2 is, but looking at it I'd guess that you forgot to unlock all Regions before deleting all but one tempo change.

The key question I was curious about is whether - receiving an existing project with some Beat Map work done for Scoring purposes, that the project could be altered to move the Beat Map and Scoring grid in relation to the original audio - or - if it was quicker to simply do a new Beat Map with a new bar to audio relationship ?

I would say this depends on how difficult it was to get the first, albeit wrong beat map and how far you have gotten using it already.

If you open a project with a couple of tempo changes in it and you notice right away that it's the wrong meter, it would be insane to go through all I described when you could get there in a fraction of the time starting fresh.

However, when there's serious time and effort being put into getting a precise and elaborate beat map which could easily run up to 100+ tempo changes, maybe even in a piece which has few or no percussive elements at all so it's even more difficult to spot the right places to put tempo changes, *and* you have begun to build on exactly that tempo map so starting over would cost you that effort as well, it might be a different story. As I said, rectifying this kind of problem takes what others need to make a really good cup of coffee, and if you don't have to retain sonic integrity because the score is the actual product, it might be the shortest way to reach that goal.

It boils down to "Am I halfway there yet?" If yes, carry on. If no, start over.

I'm not sure what the status of project 2 is, but looking at it I'd guess that you forgot to unlock all Regions before deleting all but one tempo change.

Thanks - I will check that procedure out again.

... when there's serious time and effort being put into getting a precise and elaborate beat map which could easily run up to 100+ tempo changes, maybe even in a piece which has few or no percussive elements at all so it's even more difficult to spot the right places to put tempo changes, *and* you have begun to build on exactly that tempo map so starting over would cost you that effort as well, it might be a different story.

We may be talking about different ways of Beat Mapping - the same way you can do your procedure with muscle memory in a short time, I do my kind of Beat Mapping.. which takes as long as the audio track takes to play from beginning to end:

1/ Line up the audio on bar one beat one

2/Select a midi drum sound and tap in real time a template with a midi drum beat on beat 1 of every bar - check the resulting template is accurate ( no extra rogue notes etc)

3/ Select "Beatmap" in global based on Note Value each note represents a Bar and apply - play the track and the Metronome clicks in time to the audio no matter what tempo changes .. ie slowing down and speeding up the audio is followed if your template is accurate

NB You have an example of this in Project 3 in the Dropbox link...

I have tried using Smart Tempo - which aims to do the manual process above based on looking at the transients - but Smart Tempo's Beatmap doesnt work too well for Scoring purposes and is only really useful if the audio has been originally recorded to a click track and the tempo is rock solid. ( Again I could be wrong - and not used Smart Tempo enough but as an aside I would be curious if anyone out there producing scores and parts finds they can Smart Tempo is works for this purpose. I find the tried and tested putting in your own template is the best, and also very good for your time... ( though of course it does work to use Varispeed to slow down the audio and make it easier to do a beat map of fast tempo music).

So I can get a very precise and elaborate Beat Map in a few minutes while you make a cup of coffee ...

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The time saving issue comes if there is already a lot of score work done on a wrongly beat mapped project ... and the issue is whether it is quicker to use a method like you described to correct the beat map .. or start again - and for me the answer at the moment is to start again.

Yes, I've seen you using MIDI Notes. I'll usually do one realtime pass like this:

Works really well on everything but Brian Eno's "2/2" and is really precise due to the transient markers being magnetic.

That is amazing - I just listened to Brian Eno's 2/2 on Youtube .. and I would have difficulty hearing where where the pulse is.. or how I would Beatmap it using my method to produce a Score of the melody and harmony.

Sorry wrongly read your post! I see that you are beat mapping another piece of music... - which has clear pulse - and that your point is that it is not possible to do with 2/2 - which I agree!

Are you saying you can produce a Beat Map via your method that I could work to produce a Score?

If so .. and are willing to continue our discussion - my request is that you Beatmap using your method the audio of Saudade Vem Correndo from the dropbox link.

And then post the Project here? I would be very keen to see if it is useable for producing a Score and Parts.

No problem if you dont have the time .. but that would be the acid test would it not, if your method was compatible with producing a score...?

I just tried your Beat Mapped version and it sounds perfect Also the metronome runs exactly as I was needing the track to be Beat Mapped - the correct bar per seconds two feel.

A couple of questions just so I understand the process:

1/ You used exactly the same method as you described in your original instructions?

2/ When you say that you ran it through twice - is that in real time or 'offline' as when once does Bounce in Place?

3/ The transient markers sometimes dont seem to relate to the bars - can you say a bit about how Logic detects the time.. if you hear something different - bar and beat wise do you just drag and adjust the transient markers?

But I have to admit .. very impressive thanks for your time!

the correct bar per seconds two feel

But only because you pointed that out. Initially I too might have gone for the slower, wrong tempo. I probably know less about notation than you may think...

1. No, the initial process was intended to save an already existing Beat Map. Kinda.

To actually beat map, you drag the audio file to a Track so that the downbeat of bar 1 lines up perfectly to a barline. Usually I place this at Logic's bar 2 because audio files have a little preroll most of the time and I will very likely need some kind of count-in anyway. This time I wanted the bar numbers to match in the score, so I had to shave off a bit at the top to be able to place it at bar 1.

Then you select the Region, make the Beat Mapping track visible and click on Beat Mapping>Analyse Transients. This results in the blue lines at the bottom of the Beat Mapping track.

2. From there on, it's 1-2 realtime passes like in the GIF I showed above, with the click audible, where you drag the Ruler's Bar- or Beat-Lines to matching Transient Lines. As I said, this don't need to be downbeats, anything clear and obvious is fair game. Add a little tweaking and there you are.

That's it, tempo/ bar ruler follow the music and you can begin scoring.

3. As for Logic detecting the time, it doesn't. It goes for sudden level peaks (aka transients) which most likely come from a percussion instrument or a (bass) guitar string attack. You map these manually to the ruler, going from top to bottom through the piece.

There's also the new and improved Smart Tempo features which try to do this automatically (so Logic is indeed detecting the time) but I found it to only work well with fairly static tempo and pronounced and predictable transients. Something a bit more difficult and it may misinterpret that one triplet in the lead-in to the noseflute solo as an actual tempo change and you spend the better part of an hour to rectify this trainwreck.