luckyal Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 I'm trying to write a vocal arrangement and struggling with Logic's Score Editor. The song is in 12/8 and I have the quantization in Score Editor set to 16. Is there any way to prevent the rests from automatically be added when making notes independent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volovicg Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Independent notes detach the note from the grid. What is your goal as there may be a better way to achieve it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 28, 2020 Author Share Posted February 28, 2020 In both instances, I want to avoid that legato sign so as not to confuse the vocalists. This is just one example, but I'm doing an 8 voice, complex part in 12/8 and I'm encountering a lot of issues where rests are entered where they don't belong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Did you try enabling (or forcing) "interpretation/syncopation"? Sometimes the only way is to manually adjust the note length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Music Spirit Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Several areas where your problem could be solved but there is not enough info in your example to diagnose exactly but here are the areas you might look at: 1/ You may have selected a Staff Style which has more than one voice - this would account for rests that are appearing in the same place as notes 2/ You may have Regions over lapping with different notes on top of each other... so you are seeing the rests of 1 region on top of the notes of a second region. You may also have Regions with different settings - therefore showing different rest values etc : Make sure all the Regions are consolidated 3/ If you are writing in 12/8 it may be that you dont actually need 16th note division. Would it perhaps be easier to think of all the divisions as 8th note triplets or variations thereof? ( Difficult to tell from your illustration whether what you have written is sounding how you mean it to sound). Check the overall Division of the piece in the transport. Make sure it is 8th notes or 12/8 4/ Also what Atlas says" Explore 'Interpretation/syncopation ' in the Score Editor inspector on the left. If 'Interpretation' is switched off you will see a lot less weird rests ( unless of course you make sure that all the notes conform exactly to the basic division of the piece. 5/ Also - I dont understand why you are turning the notes into Independent notes - that will increase the number of rests as Logic then does not count the Independent notes as part of the arithmetic to fill up the bar correctly - and that will increase the number of rests.. 6/ Have you explored the Piano Roll - where you can see exactly what the note values and lengths are in relation to the rhythmic grid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plowman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 The OP said “legato sign.” He means ties. “Would it perhaps be easier to think of all the divisions as 8th note triplets or variations thereof?” I had this thought also. There can certainly be sixteenth notes in triplet eighths, but they really should be visually grouped in threes, no matter the division. Unbeaming and untying notes in 12/8 can make for some squirrelly notation. There was a time in vocal music where vocal notes were intentionally unbeamed in the name of clarity. To my eyes, it made the score harder to read, not easier. This convention did not fare well into the Twentieth Century. Sorry to digress. The three responses are helpful. And here’s an offer: write out on manuscript exactly how you want the bar to look, take a picture or scan it and post, and someone here will show you how to realize with Logic your musical intent. Needless to say, independent notes are not the best tool. One likely solution: pick a staff style like Treble, open the Staff Style Window, and under Beam, select “Vocal.” This might get you most of the way there, though as Music Spirit suggests, the note durations as proven in Piano Roll will have to be reasonably precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 Did you try enabling (or forcing) "interpretation/syncopation"?Sometimes the only way is to manually adjust the note length. Note length in Piano roll is exactly as I want it and extends all the way to the next note, so there should not be a rest there to begin with. I have exhausted all the options with respect to toggling interpretation/syncopation to no avail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 1/ You may have selected a Staff Style which has more than one voice 2/ You may have Regions over lapping with different notes on top of each other... so you are seeing the rests of 1 region on top of the notes of a second region. You may also have Regions with different settings - therefore showing different rest values etc : Make sure all the Regions are consolidated They are! I ensured that regions and note lengths are clean prior to attempting any lyrical input in the score editor. I also removed ALL midi messages apart from Notes in the event list.3/ If you are writing in 12/8 it may be that you dont actually need 16th note division. Would it perhaps be easier to think of all the divisions as 8th note triplets or variations thereof?I definitely do have many 16th note instances. If I go down to 8th, I end up with syllables that float outside the note. 4/ Also what Atlas says" Explore 'Interpretation/syncopation ' in the Score Editor inspector on the left. If 'Interpretation' is switched off you will see a lot less weird rests. 5/ Also - I dont understand why you are turning the notes into Independent notes - that will increase the number of rests as Logic then does not count the Independent notes as part of the arithmetic to fill up the bar correctly - and that will increase the number of rests..I think that's probably the key here. I am as green as they come with respect to music theory. Thanks to Logic and the transpose button I have successfully overcome those shortcomings until now. 6/ Have you explored the Piano Roll - where you can see exactly what the note values and lengths are in relation to the rhythmic grid?The notes are exactly as I want them in the Piano Roll. No, notes are hidden behind other notes and none are overlapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volovicg Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Turn off “no overlap” so we can see all the notes then you can ask the question and we can see what you mean... we can’t help you if you reference the piano roll but don’t show it - plus the score can be set for best notational practices without affecting the piano roll.. so they are mutually independent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) The OP said “legato sign.” He means ties.Good lord! Well there's a discovery for the ages. My choir director kept referring to those as legatos, so I assumed they're legatos. No wonder Google wasn't helpful. Unbeaming and untying notes in 12/8 can make for some squirrelly notation. There was a time in vocal music where vocal notes were intentionally unbeamed in the name of clarity. To my eyes, it made the score harder to read, not easier. This convention did not fare well into the Twentieth Century. This is precisely the discussion I'm having with the choir maestro. He continues to point me to older works that do not have the "ties," to which I respond with current works that DO in fact have "ties." When I compare the timing and the phraseology, the result I produce is identical to the current works. As far as the workaround I have been using Unbeaming with some success. The solution seems to be to Unbeam the previous note and Force Syncopation and only then get the desired result. Edited February 29, 2020 by luckyal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volovicg Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 You can turn on syncopation up in the inspector globally - then you won’t have to do it for each note Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plowman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Yes, I understand about the notation debate. Vocal staves in classical opera make me wince. Please, do try the "Vocal" settings under the Beam choices in staff style, as mentioned in my last paragraph. I think it was designed by your choir director. And, as Greg asked, a screen shot of the one or two bars in question in Piano Roll will tell us exactly what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 You can turn on syncopation up in the inspector globally - then you won’t have to do it for each noteAlready done! That definitely takes one manual step out of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Solution Share Posted February 29, 2020 Please, do try the "Vocal" settings under the Beam choices in staff style, as mentioned in my last paragraph. I think it was designed by your choir director. BINGO! Solved all my problems in one fell swoop! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volovicg Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Nice Steve !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plowman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Atlas007, Music Spirit, Greg and I weep for joy. By the way, I didn't even know there WAS such a thing was "Vocal" under Beam in Staff Style until I tried to puzzle this out. So we both profited. And really, should any of us be here on a Friday night? Sleep well, Logicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyal Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 I was considering everything from MuseScore to Dorico to overcome this problem. Great team effort! Thanks everyone for your input!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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