Send names alternative

Since I started working with Logic I always found very confusing and not intuitive at all the way the names for the bug routing were picked. For me, based on what they do and where they are located, the names don't really reflect what happens behind the scenes. Example:

Post Pan, isn't actually post pan. Is post pan and post fader and since the fader is after the pan, why not call Post Fader?

The same for Pre Fader. It's not actually Pre Fader. It's Pre Fader and Pre Pan, and since the pan is before the fader, why not call it Pre Pan?

And then there's this other option that's after the fader, but pre pan, so why not just call it Post Fader/Pre Pan?

Also the order in the menu, should be reversed to reflect the different point where this happens. Here's my option. Let me know what you think:

Actually, the pan is after the fader, which might clear up things a bit.

- The Pre Fader spot is specifically post Mute (but everything is, so that wouldn't help) and, well, pre fader.

- The Post Fader spot is specifically post fader and pre pan.

- The Post Pan spot is specifically post pan (nothing else is).

I think you're missing my point

I'm not talking about how things are routed internally, behind the scenes, but how they flow in the channel strip, visually (which should be intuitive)

Remember when Logic had the Software Instrument below everything?

It didn't make much sense, right? Because it all starts with the instrument and then it flows from top to bottom. Then they changed it to the top, where it makes sense

Regardless of the pan (behind the scenes) being before or after the fader, we look at the channel strip and we see MIDIFX > Instrument > Inserts > Sends > Pan > Fader. Even the Output option, according to this logic (no pun intended) should be at the bottom after the fader, not after the Sends.

So looking at the channel strip and saying it's "Post Pan", makes me think that the sound is sent after the Pan, but before the Fader. In fact, that's happening after the fader, so it should be called Post Fader. Again, regardless of what's happening behind the scenes. It should be intuitive.

So all the other options I presented are according to how things are laid out visually.

According to this post (http://www.carneymediagroup.com/musictechhelpguy-videos/2018/12/20/logic-pro-x-effects-sends-post-pan-post-fader-pre-fader-sends-on-faders-independent-pan)

here's what he says "These can be a bit confusing because you might think that the pan knob comes before the volume fader, just because of it’s position on the channel visually. The opposite is actually true. The pan knob comes AFTER the volume fader from a signal flow perspective."

For me, the moment something can be confusing, it means that it needs to change and become intuitive. That's just my point, otherwise we would all be creating things that work one way behind the scenes, but then visually speaking it would be different. Things shouldn't be built thinking of the "tech/geek" users, but for everyone to easily understand how to

I see. By that logic, the mute button should be shown after the plugins, post fader sends should move below the fader, (kind of what pre fader metering does, which I find highly irritating), followed by pan and then, finally, the output routing at the very bottom.

That would possibly check the 'intuitive' box, but certainly would miss the 'ergonomic' mark, by a huge margin and would make navigating a hardware control surface a nightmare

I see. By that logic, the mute button should be shown after the plugins, post fader sends should move below the fader, (kind of what pre fader metering does, which I find highly irritating), followed by pan and then, finally, the output routing at the very bottom.

 

That would possibly check the 'intuitive' box, but certainly would miss the 'ergonomic' mark, by a huge margin and would make navigating a hardware control surface a nightmare

I see what you mean, but all those other options don't directly interact with another feature. What I mean is: since the Sends interact with the Pan and the Fader, then there should be some logic behind it. I'm ok with the other stuff, because they are independent, if you know what I mean.

If they changed the names of the 3 options just how I suggested, then the channel strip didn't need to change anything. I don't even see why the route is Sends > Fader > Pan. Can you explain it with an example, because I can't really see the logic behind it, if there's any advantage or something?

Also, if companies are trying to mimic the real life environment such as a mixing desk, then the mute and solo should be before the fader:

But again, that wouldn't really bother me, because I see those as 100% independent, unlike the Sends where you can move the routing to 3 different positions that, as of now, don't really seem intuitive. Looking at the channel strip, wouldn't we assume that Post Pan and Pre Fader are actually the same? It's quite confusing and even though I know how it works, it always requires me some time to really figure out what I want to do, because I need to think about the whole internal routing instead of just looking at the channel strip and understand it right away, if that makes sense

all those other options don't directly interact with another feature.

Of course they do. The mute button mutes signal after the plugins, so how can it be at the bottom of the channel strip ? Fader affects post fader sends, pan and routing, so it needs to be shown above them and Pan affects post pan sends and routing, so it certainly should be shown above them, right ? Anything else is unintuitive™

It seems to me that you appear to distinguish between "things that are illogic but ok" and "things that are illogic and not ok". And which is which is a highly personal matter, so where do you start and where do you end ?

I don't even see why the route is Sends > Fader > Pan. Can you explain it with an example, because I can't really see the logic behind it, if there's any advantage or something?

As far as signal flow goes, pre fader sends and fader are in parallel and thus independent. They get the same signal (however, on some real consoles, the mute sits between pre fader sends and fader).

Then, a hardware fader is a mono device. It is next to impossible to create a stereo fader with identical tracking between both sides, especially in the lower range so fading something out or in would always have it move to or from one side. Also, there is no point in using a stereo fader if the pan is in the center so you pay for a device that's hard to manufacture and therefore expensive and don't actually use it. That's why the pan comes after the mono fader.

As far as desk layout goes, it's all down to ergonomics. Most of what you do as a sound engineer is working the faders. That is why they are large, linear things near you and not round knobs tucked away at the top, like the gain pot is. This is also why mute and solo are directly above the fader mostly, so you a) don't need to lift your wrist to operate it and b) your hand on the fader does not obstruct the view to it.

Of course they do

Well, basically everything inside Logic affects other things, right? That's not what I mean.

The mute button does only one thing and doesn't move around when it comes to routing, unlike the Sends. You can have the Sends in 3 different places, depending on the option you pick and it affects the signal in 3 different ways. A mute is a mute. An insert is an insert. You can't have an insert after a pan or the sends. That's what I mean by not interacting with another feature.

Also if you think about the flow itself, it doesn't really matter if the Mute is at the bottom or after the sends. It mutes everything. The final result is the same: silence. So regardless of it being at the bottom or not, you get the same result. There's no confusion there. Someone starting out with Logic will not be confused about what the mute button does, either it being at the top of the channel strip before the MIDIFX or at the bottom after the fader

So again, if you think it doesn't make sense that the Mute is at the bottom, because that's not how the routing is done behind the scenes, then why is the pan before the volume fader if that's not what's happening behind the scenes? Kinda counterintuitive, don't you think?

In this case I don't see it as a matter of personal taste. I see it as it being logical to the majority of people. You shouldn't need to know the internal routing to being able to work with the program. Everything in the channel strip flows from top to bottom, why is it "broken" when it gets to the sends? Then why did they change the instrument from the bottom to the top? It's because of the visual workflow. Again, I'm not saying that the pan should be at the bottom, but I believe that changing the routing internally or changing the names would make much more sense, because people would be able to see it right away, according to the names and the flow top to bottom.

I understand the concept in the hardware environment, but when it comes to software, you can change things around so they could easily change the routing to be Inserts > Sends > Pan > Volume. Then the names would make perfect sense. Right now, they don't.

If we were to mimic the real world with hardware, then we wouldn't even be allowed to do 90% of the things we do inside a DAW, correct? DAWs were made to make our lives easier and the workflows faster. I don't think they are supposed to mimic the real world all the time. In a console you have a fixed EQ, correct? So you deal with it the way you can. In a DAW you're free to either have an EQ or not and where it goes. That's just an example, for course.