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Step sequence and piano roll


Mrsolo2020

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The step sequencer is not a MIDI editor, it's a generator (a bit like how Drummer works).

 

You can't flip back and forth between that, and a MIDI editor, as the step sequencer isn't editing MIDI.

 

So do stuff in the step sequencer, keep the pattern, export to MIDI and work on that, but you can't convert MIDI back into step sequence parameters (at least at this time).

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So if you wanted to add more elements or change your pattern, once in the piano roll you would have to continue in the piano roll , and the step sequencer wouldn’t be of any use?

It's your choice. You can have both the MIDI region to use the Piano Roll and another Pattern region on another track routed to the same channel strip to also use the Step Sequencer on the same track, if you want. Choose Track > Other > New Track With Same Instrument.

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So if you wanted to add more elements or change your pattern, once in the piano roll you would have to continue in the piano roll , and the step sequencer wouldn’t be of any use?

It's your choice. You can have both the MIDI region to use the Piano Roll and another Pattern region on another track routed to the same channel strip to also use the Step Sequencer on the same track, if you want. Choose Track > Other > New Track With Same Instrument.

 

Do you think this will be the permanent solution?

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i agree with you it would be nice if we could translate both directions...but translating from midi directly back to step sequencer meta data is not entirely straight forward... Realistically it would be quite complicated. The Step Sequencer is using meta data to describe things and generating midi on the fly as it plays back. Its same with the Drummer module you can covert to midi region, but you can't translate back to a drummer region, which again, is using meta information to generate midi on the fly as it plays back.

 

What david is suggesting is probably the best solution, keep both tracks around so you can keep working on the step sequencer if you want, but just remember if you make edits to the midi region...they can't get back to the step sequencer, that's just how it is and unlikely to be changed by Apple.

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Also, in a MIDI region, notes could be at all kinds of tick values way off the grid. When converting to step sequencer, what should happen? Should it time correct the off grid notes to directly on the grid? Should it delete notes which get quantised together to form dupes? Should it just ignore/delete notes that are off grid entirely? What about regions that are way longer than the maximum grid step length? Should it delete all that stuff too?

 

I'm fairly sure any changes to the data when converting to the step sequence grid people would claim as another huge bug, but these things are complicated and people in general aren't very good thinking through these things as a developer has to do.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this gets added in some form but I can understand the complexities that might not be obvious at first glance might make it the kind of feature that gets pushed back when heading for a big release date.

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Also, in a MIDI region, notes could be at all kinds of tick values way off the grid. When converting to step sequencer, what should happen? Should it time correct the off grid notes to directly on the grid?

 

Step Sequencer has a way to offset the cells off the grid too in the form of meta data, but it would just be a matter of a conversion routine doing more or less what it can to cover it to the right set of meta data. But whenever you do that kind of thing, you will have to make presumptions about how to represent the data with meta data, which might not always work for everyone...so then you have to give the user options for how to translate it, etc..and it just becomes complicated quick.

 

There are different ways to represent data in step sequencer to get the same output midi. So...which way should this hypothetical converter do it? see what I mean, invariably people would say, "hey wait, not's how I had it originally before I converted it to a midi region".

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this gets added in some form but I can understand the complexities that might not be obvious at first glance might make it the kind of feature that gets pushed back when heading for a big release date.

 

Apple won't add it for the same reason as Drummer.

 

The best way to think about Step Sequencer is NOT as a grid editor. That is not what it is. Its more of an algorithmic idea generator, that will crank out ideas.... You can mess around with all sorts of parameters in it to get interesting accidental musical results...or not accidental...but anyway, its not a simple grid editor, though some people might have thought that this was finally a good drum editor in LogicPro..its not. Think of its an algorithmic idea generator, get a nice groove, then save it as a midi region to hand tweak it, but after that, you're going to be piano roll or step editor from there on out..that's just how it is. Apply groove templates to the midi region later, etc. I have noticed also that SS is not very tight..it plays back with sloppy timing. Everyone will want to covert it to a midi region before bouncing to audio.

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Step Sequencer has a way to offset the cells off the grid too in the form of meta data, but it would just be a matter of a conversion routine doing more or less what it can to cover it to the right set of meta data.

Considering that the same start offset corresponds to different tick offsets depending on the step rate, the conversion routing wouldn't necessarily be obvious and would most likely yield different results at different tempos... not saying it wouldn't be doable but it's one more thing to think about that may make this more complex than it would look at first.

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definitely. its just always hard to convert from static results to a rule based meta data. It could be done and probably you could create a conversion that would initially sound exactly like the midi, but many people would want to represent the rules in a different way than presumed... if you start with a rule set, convert to midi, then convert back to rules...the resulting rules could be different then the ones you started out with originally, even if the results sound exactly the same!
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Step Sequencer has a way to offset the cells off the grid too in the form of meta data

 

I know. But those sets are much more limited compared to raw MIDI data. I'm aware of the limitations of the step sequencer in terms of note placements because I've been using it with the note repeat and offset functions and there's things I'd like to do that you just can't do (as an example, if you have a step with note repeat set to 8 notes, you can't have the first or last of those 8 notes not play - it's all or nothing).

 

but it would just be a matter of a conversion routine doing more or less what it can to cover it to the right set of meta data.

 

Yep - and in my post I was illustrating the kinds of things that don't easily fit into a conversion routine. As I imply, it's not that this thing couldn't be done, but it's more complex than people realise.

 

But whenever you do that kind of thing, you will have to make presumptions about how to represent the data with meta data, which might not always work for everyone...so then you have to give the user options for how to translate it, etc..and it just becomes complicated quick.

 

Yes - now you're just repeating what I said...

 

There are different ways to represent data in step sequencer to get the same output midi. So...which way should this hypothetical converter do it? see what I mean, invariably people would say, "hey wait, not's how I had it originally before I converted it to a midi region".

 

Yes, I said that too. Was it not clear from my post?

 

Apple won't add it for the same reason as Drummer.

The best way to think about Step Sequencer is NOT as a grid editor. That is not what it is.

 

I'm not sure whether you're addressing me, or the OP. I agree, and have been saying this here repeatedly - the step sequencer is not a MIDI editor, it's inspired my modular step sequencers with rows of switches and control voltages, just in software form.

 

But some people just want to edit drum patterns, and in the simple example of quantised drum patterns (without using any of the flashy features) they can't see the difference conceptually, and just think it should all be the same thing.

 

Its more of an algorithmic idea generator, that will crank out ideas.... You can mess around with all sorts of parameters in it to get interesting accidental musical results...or not accidental...but anyway, its not a simple grid editor, though some people might have thought that this was finally a good drum editor in LogicPro..its not.

 

Yep, I agree with all this. I love that I can make patterns that will have parts that independently loop, steps with random chances of playing and so on - it's really cool. And it's pretty good for creating drum patterns too... and melodies, arpeggios, chordal parts and so on - there's some interesting preset patterns to explore.

 

I can also see more reasons why they removed the Step Editor from the tab too, as when you put these two editors together, even more people would expect the step sequencer to be just another MIDI editor...

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many people would want to represent the rules in a different way than presumed...

Exactly. A /4 step with a gate of 25% is a /8 step with a gate of 50% is a /16 step with a gate of 100%. Except that the same start offset is going to give you a different distance from the grid on each one of those. Bit of a headache. And that's with square values.

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@des99: If I quote you I'm addressing you, not interested in fighting with you which you seem to be, so I will duck out after this.

 

I will just add also that for example, I didn't see a clean way with Step Sequencer to create a velocity ramp over repeated notes.... Easy in piano roll. Anyway, there are many reasons to finish the pattern in a normal midi region using the traditional LogicPro tools. But translating back to Step Sequencer is not in there now and is unlikely to ever be added in there, so use the tools as they are... SS works as an idea generator...it has loose timing so eventually you want to convert to midi region anyway. In the midi region you can fine tune your idea to exacting performance. But once you do that, you can't go back to SS unless you want to start over and redo all the manual edits again later.

 

That's just how it is... its not the end of the world.

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many people would want to represent the rules in a different way than presumed...

Exactly. A /4 step with a gate of 25% is a /8 step with a gate of 50% is a /16 step with a gate of 100%. Except that the same start offset is going to give you a different distance from the grid on each one of those. Bit of a headache. And that's with square values.

 

exactly. You can also have one pitch per row...or multiple pitches on a single row, for example. I'm sure we could think of many examples.

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also what if you started out in SS with let's say different rows with different lengths, and cycle patterns...and you stumble upon a cool poly rhythmic pattern and go whoa that sounds awesome... you convert it to midi. Now you want to convert that resulting midi back to some kind of SS... its not going to end up with the same configuration of rows of different length and forward-backward patterns, etc.. That meta information has been lost when you converted it to midi. For example..
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@des99: If I quote you I'm addressing you, not interested in fighting with you which you seem to be, so I will duck out after this.

 

Not at all, I just found your post a bit combative...

 

I added some extra context to your post, and then you quoted my points, but saying essentially my own points back to me as if these were things that you disagreed with.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I found the post rather weird, especially as we're basically in agreement...

 

They only thing we potentially disagree on is you say "won't ever happen" and I said "you never know, something along these lines might happen".

(I actually feel that, like you, the reality is closer to "won't ever happen" but I'm saying it's not impossible, but will certainly be non-trivial to do in a way that satisfies the people asking for the feature, if they do do it.)

 

That's just how it is... its not the end of the world.

 

Agreed.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I was able to convert the region to MIDI without problem, but going to opposite direction not so simple.

My point was that you can have both a MIDI region and a Pattern region triggering the same instrument at the same time. Either overlapped on the same track, or on two different tracks assigned the same channel.

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I was able to convert the region to MIDI without problem, but going to opposite direction not so simple.

My point was that you can have both a MIDI region and a Pattern region triggering the same instrument at the same time. Either overlapped on the same track, or on two different tracks assigned the same channel.

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  • 1 year later...

I don't know if this issue has been already addressed since last year. But I checked this thread and there doesn't seem to be an update.

 

Working on pattern regions, as this thread mentions, one can easily convert the region to midi (shift alt command m).

But now it is equally easy to convert a midi region back to pattern. The command to do: midi region ---> pattern, is in the same menu.

In fact one can flip flop back and forth between pattern and midi region ...

Mentioning this because I recently found this out. And this feature is quite fantastic.

:)

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