Automation Bug in Logic 10.5.1

Hi Folks,

I finished recording some projects about a month ago and mixed everything down to mp3 and saved and backed up all my logic projects and backed up logic 10.4.8. Then I upgraded OSX to Catalina and upgraded to Logic 10.5.

I recently opened one of the projects that I hadn't touched since before upgrading and I am noticing some significant playback differences between the project in Logic 10.5 and the mix down that I made a month ago, and I can't figure out what is going on. Specifically, there's a couple of audio tracks that have much lower volume on playback, but I can still sort of hear them in Solo mode. It's difficult to figure out.

So, I restored Logic 10.4.8 and opened my backup of the project, and the problem was gone! I saved a copy of the project from 10.4.8 and then opened the project in 10.5 and the problem has reappeared! So something in 10.5 is causing two tracks two have totally different volume, or not play back, basically.

I don't have time right this second to switch back and forth between 10.4.8 and 10.5 to document all the differences to trace the problem. But does anyone with knowledge of what changed between 10.4.8 and 10.5 have any ideas on what might be going on? This kinda sucks because it means that every project I have must be either totally re-mixed to find any unexpected changes, or can only be interfaced from 10.4.8 I guess this is why people still insist on using tape haha.

Thank you!

no such thing here; is there a plugin on those tracks that doesn't work in 10.5? something is different in your setup, as there should be no difference, if all plugins are running, and the setup is the same...

All I know is I open the project in 10.4.8 and I hear things as they should be, then close without saving and open the same project in 10.5.1 (same saved version) and there are two tracks that are sounding weird and quiet. Same plug-ins, same levels, same automation; literally nothing in the project is changed, it's the same saved copy.

Could there be a difference in Logic X Pro preferences in 10.4.8 and 10.5.1 that is causing the problem? Should I just compare 10.4.8 to 10.5.1 preferences screen-by-screen setting everything the same as 10.4.8 and see if it fixes the problem?

Thanks, sorry I don't have more or better documentation of the issue, I'm still trying to pin it down myself.

hard to tell from here, but i see absolutely no differences (in playback) between 10.5 and previous logics.

i'd make a copy of the project (in the finder), then open it in 10.4.8, turn off all plugins on those 2 tracks; get it where you want the levels. then open it in 10.5, see what happens... seems to be specific to those 2 tracks...

make sure both versions of logic are NOT open at the same time.

hard to tell from here, but i see absolutely no differences (in playback) between 10.5 and previous logics.

 

i'd make a copy of the project (in the finder), then open it in 10.4.8, turn off all plugins on those 2 tracks; get it where you want the levels. then open it in 10.5, see what happens... seems to be specific to those 2 tracks...

 

make sure both versions of logic are NOT open at the same time.

Thanks for the tip on not opening both logic versions at the same time I would have had no way of knowing that.

I'll give it a shot today and report back what I find.

Ok, I've discovered a problem.

Below are screen shots of the same exact project file. The first picture is opened in Logic 10.4.8 and the second picture is opened in Logic 10.5.1. It is thee EXACT same saved project, no differences. The plug-in in question is the Limiter plug-in. Notice the automation is completely different. What is causing this??

Logic 10.4.8

Logic 10.5.1

I'm quite a bit concerned now because if the new version of logic is inexplicably changing automation, it means I have to investigate every single project to make sure the automation is still accurate, this sounds like... I have my work cut out for me for the next year

how many projects does this happen in? one? many? if it's the one, fix it, and get back to work... you may be looking for a needle in a haystack (or whatever the 21st-century equivalent action is).

if it's a bunch of projects, maybe post the logic file here, and the brilliant community here can take a look...

how many projects does this happen in? one? many? if it's the one, fix it, and get back to work... you may be looking for a needle in a haystack (or whatever the 21st-century equivalent action is).

 

if it's a bunch of projects, maybe post the logic file here, and the brilliant community here can take a look...

This is the only project I've noticed so far, but I haven't investigated super closely. I'm already wondering about a needle in a haystack. It could be countless projects. The only way to know is to compare track by track on every single project. I could also delete all the other tracks in the project and save a copy with just these two tracks, perhaps someone else could investigate and pinpoint the problem? This is pretty worrisome.

why not move forward? fix the 2 tracks in this project, and approach each new project one-at-a time; if there are small fixes to make (i'd worry more about how your mix sounds, rather than if it sounds exactly the same as it did before).

but if it's an issue, deal with it when it's out-of-control (ie the problem happens on a number of projects). don't open more than one project at a time! you risk corrupting the work. and don't have both logic versions open.

anyway, that's what i'd do. otherwise... see who else has ideas here. good luck!

EDIT: i've opened projects as far back as 2011, and, outside of any 3rd-party plugins i no longer use, i have not noticed any differences in levels, overall sound. could be corruption that happened with both logic versions open... but that's just a guess...

why not move forward? fix the 2 tracks in this project, and approach each new project one-at-a time; if there are small fixes to make (i'd worry more about how your mix sounds, rather than if it sounds exactly the same as it did before).

 

but if it's an issue, deal with it when it's out-of-control (ie the problem happens on a number of projects). don't open more than one project at a time! you risk corrupting the work. and don't have both logic versions open.

 

anyway, that's what i'd do. otherwise... see who else has ideas here. good luck!

 

EDIT: i've opened projects as far back as 2011, and, outside of any 3rd-party plugins i no longer use, i have not noticed any differences in levels, overall sound. could be corruption that happened with both logic versions open... but that's just a guess...

thanks for the information. By both versions open, you mean 10.4.8 and 10.5.1 both open at the same time? I don't think I've done that. I have had multiple projects open at the same time to transfer settings. Is that okay?

NO. there's a ton of discussion here, with constant warnings; do NOT open more than one project at a time, you risk corruption. that may be what's happening for you.

open a newer project, and use 'import logic projects' IN that project, and import what you want. File>Import>Logic Projects.

NO. there's a ton of discussion here, with constant warnings; do NOT open more than one project at a time, you risk corruption. that may be what's happening for you.

 

open a newer project, and use 'import logic projects' IN that project, and import what you want. File>Import>Logic Projects.

OK, good to know, but the project in question has been restored to my desktop from a backup, and this restored backup has never had multiple projects open simultaneously.

EDIT- Thanks for your feedback and recommendations. I've also got a support call with Apple scheduled for this evening, because this really feels like a bug to me. But it's good to know you've NEVER experienced anything like this. I'm hoping something got corrupted somehow and it's just this one project.

right. and everything i've suggested is what i'm suggesting. fix those 2 tracks, and get back to work. and, if you find the problem happens often, post for help here...

See my edit above, I realized that on second read. Thanks for all the advice.

right. and everything i've suggested is what i'm suggesting. fix those 2 tracks, and get back to work. and, if you find the problem happens often, post for help here...

 

See my edit above, I realized that on second read. Thanks for all the advice.

let us know what happens with apple!

So the call with Apple went really well. They ran me through all the typical troubleshooting steps, making new users, deleting preferences, reinstalling Logic altogether. They also had me re-create the problem from a brand new project, and it persisted, which means it's not caused by file corruption. They created a ticket with their engineering team because it does look like it is a bug. They'll get back to me when the engineering team reviews it.

As of now, it seems to only effect the Limiter plug-in, Gain automation. As you can imagine, the "gain" knob in the Limiter plugin isn't something I really automate much anyways. Out of all my projects, I automated this once to fix an issue on these two tracks, and that's it, so I can fix this and move on easily. However, I briefly compared a few other projects and haven't found any instances of the issue effecting other plug-ins, but I am going to have to go through my projects and see. It does not effect volume or pan automation thankfully, but I'll have to double-check some projects where I added automation on less fundamental items like ringshifter, amps, delay, etc.

See the images below in a totally new Logic project, you can see the issue persists:

10.4.8 Limiter- "Gain" Automation

10.5.1 Limiter- "Gain" Automation

FINALLY, I asked whether you risk corruption by having two Logic projects open at once and the person I talked to literally said "I have never heard of that before" and said maybe in earlier versions but not in any of the recent ones. She said you are more likely to experience problems if you're running low on hard drive space, or if you don't have enough RAM to support two projects open at once. If that is a point of contention around here sorry for fanning the flames on that

 

FINALLY, I asked whether you risk corruption by having two Logic projects open at once and the person I talked to literally said "I have never heard of that before" and said maybe in earlier versions but not in any of the recent ones. She said you are more likely to experience problems if you're running low on hard drive space, or if you don't have enough RAM to support two projects open at once. If that is a point of contention around here sorry for fanning the flames on that

it's a fact, and amazed that apple doesn't acknowlege it (or the person you spoke to doesn't know about this). seriously, don't take the risk; this is a widely-reported issue, it's not new, and it's corrupted a lot of projects for a lot of people.

i use the gain plugin a lot, and automation a lot, without issue (but all my limiting is done with 3rd-party apps). hope it all gets sorted for you!

First off, thanks for the persistence and the heads up.

I have never heard of that before.

If only I had a cent for every time I've heard this line from dealer or support, usually on things that are commonly known.

I've learned to take it at face value. This specific person has never heard from it, and it tells more about the person than about the problem, at least when dealing with well known, documented and old bugs.

Ok! Thanks for the confirmation on dual-projects.

Regarding the plug-in, it's not the gain plug-in. It's the Gain knob on the Limiter plug-in.

Please I encourage you guys to try this.

1. Create a new project in 10.4.8. Add a track. Add the Limiter plug-in. Automate the "Gain" knob in the Limiter plug-in on that track and make a few automation points on your track. Take a screen shot. Save it.

2. Open the same project in 10.5.1. Is your automation the same as the screen shot?

I can reproduce this again and again. From multiple OSX users, from a fresh copy of Logic. It really looks like a bug to me at least.

ah, ok, the limiter plugin (which i don't use personally). but i don't think anyone else here has reported this issue?... anyway, let us know what you find out.

EDIT: one last thought; do you start all your projects from a custom template? if so, might be worth looking at that...

ah, ok, the limiter plugin (which i don't use personally). but i don't think anyone else here has reported this issue?... anyway, let us know what you find out.

 

EDIT: one last thought; do you start all your projects from a custom template? if so, might be worth looking at that...

Nope, start em all fresh. And my test project was also brand new.

hmmm. just wondering what the common denominator is, since this doesn't seem to be a common issue. hope you sort it out (am curious about it!).

I would really like for another user to try the steps I shared in an earlier post in this thread. I want to see if others can recreate this, it looks like a bug.

maybe someone here can do that (i only have LX 10.5.1)...

anyone?

Please I encourage you guys to try this.

 

1. Create a new project in 10.4.8. Add a track. Add the Limiter plug-in. Automate the "Gain" knob in the Limiter plug-in on that track and make a few automation points on your track. Take a screen shot. Save it.

2. Open the same project in 10.5.1. Is your automation the same as the screen shot?

 

I can reproduce this again and again. From multiple OSX users, from a fresh copy of Logic. It really looks like a bug to me at least.

Confirmed. Definitely a bug.

Please I encourage you guys to try this.

 

1. Create a new project in 10.4.8. Add a track. Add the Limiter plug-in. Automate the "Gain" knob in the Limiter plug-in on that track and make a few automation points on your track. Take a screen shot. Save it.

2. Open the same project in 10.5.1. Is your automation the same as the screen shot?

 

I can reproduce this again and again. From multiple OSX users, from a fresh copy of Logic. It really looks like a bug to me at least.

 

Confirmed. Definitely a bug.

 

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EDIT - Thank you for testing this! Nice to know it's not just me. I'm in touch with someone at Apple and they want me to try a couple more things so I'll report back.

FYI, the engineers at apple asked me to record a screen video of the issue start to finish, and they're investigating the bug.

I went through my other projects to compare from 10.4.8 to 10.5.1other obscure plug-in automation, like chromaverb "wet/dry", compressor "attack," amp "master", ringshifter "wet/dry," tremolo "depth," etc. There were a lot less of these more obscure automation than I thought so it didn't take too long.

I also made a test project and tested automation of each knob in the Limiter plug-in and the only automation with the bug is the "gain" knob. So my existing projects are all out of the woods on this and any new projects of course won't be effected. There could be other plugins effected by the bug, but none that I used in a 10.4.8 project.