Articulation Sets on AUX Channels

Leandro, its really hard to understand what you're trying to do or why you're having so many problems. why don't you share a LogicPro project so we can have a look at it.

You keep bringing up problems that I don't think are problems...you probably need to learn LogicPro a little better...but you have something complex going on, which is fine, but its impossible for anyone to know what to tell you without a lot more detail.

which script are you referring to?

Channelizer 3_2h

 

You don't need a third party system for this simple task. Just assign each to a MIDI channel and create an Articulation Set for the instrument, unless you need more than 16 discrete articulations.

 

Screen Shot 2020-09-03 at 8.34.10 AM (2).png

Hi Jay, this method would work fine if I had one VEP exclusive for HS 1st Violins. I wouldn't need the midi ports then. However, they are part of a big VEP containing several libraries, and the articulations sets can't see the ports.

I understand. Which is why I don't do that. Occam's Razor.

Leandro, its really hard to understand what you're trying to do or why you're having so many problems. why don't you share a LogicPro project so we can have a look at it.

 

You keep bringing up problems that I don't think are problems...you probably need to learn LogicPro a little better...but you have something complex going on, which is fine, but its impossible for anyone to know what to tell you without a lot more detail.

Ok the project is attached.

New Template.logicx.zip

Alright..so I only see a few tracks that an articulation set assigned to them (8dio). In those articulation sets you appear to be assigning articulations to channels as well as sending keyswitches.

Unfortunately your project is not opening in VePro for me probably because I don't have the right plugins so I can't see how you have VePro configured.

but what exactly is the problem?

In this configuration...you have no scripts at all. Articulation Sets do not understand about AU3 ports. You can assign each track to a PORT and CHANNEL, but in the articulation Set itself, you can only route articulations across 16 midi channels of the port that is currently assigned for that track.

In VePro if you set the mixer channel midi channel to ALL, then the midi channel assignments from the articulationSet should pass all the way into Kontakt or PLAY where you can have different articulations loaded on a per articulation basis.

The channelizer script I made, you are not using in this example project. But you would not really be able to if you are depending on keyswitches also.

The only reason to use a custom script in this case would be if you have one instrument, on one track that needs more then 16 articulations, on more than 16 midi channels (spanning across ports for that one instrument track). In that case then Scripter is able to assign port to any midi event you want. That's why channelizer can route to all 48 ports x 16 channels each... and can do that...but it does not handle keyswitches so may not work for you.

AG probably can be made to work, but you have to consult with Ivan.

Its kind of hard to understand exactly what problem you're having. Please try to write out in complete explicit terms exactly what need to accomplish in terms of your instruments in a way that we can understand and we can make more specific recommendations, but I for one am confused by what you are asking and complaining about and am unable to respond without a more clear idea of what you want to accomplish exactly.

cheers

Alright..so I only see a few tracks that an articulation set assigned to them (8dio). In those articulation sets you appear to be assigning articulations to channels as well as sending keyswitches.

 

Unfortunately your project is not opening in VePro for me probably because I don't have the right plugins so I can't see how you have VePro configured.

 

but what exactly is the problem?

 

In this configuration...you have no scripts at all. Articulation Sets do not understand about AU3 ports. You can assign each track to a PORT and CHANNEL, but in the articulation Set itself, you can only route articulations across 16 midi channels of the port that is currently assigned for that track.

 

In VePro if you set the mixer channel midi channel to ALL, then the midi channel assignments from the articulationSet should pass all the way into Kontakt or PLAY where you can have different articulations loaded on a per articulation basis.

 

The channelizer script I made, you are not using in this example project. But you would not really be able to if you are depending on keyswitches also.

 

The only reason to use a custom script in this case would be if you have one instrument, on one track that needs more then 16 articulations, on more than 16 midi channels (spanning across ports for that one instrument track). In that case then Scripter is able to assign port to any midi event you want. That's why channelizer can route to all 48 ports x 16 channels each... and can do that...but it does not handle keyswitches so may not work for you.

 

AG probably can be made to work, but you have to consult with Ivan.

 

Its kind of hard to understand exactly what problem you're having. Please try to write out in complete explicit terms exactly what need to accomplish in terms of your instruments in a way that we can understand and we can make more specific recommendations, but I for one am confused by what you are asking and complaining about and am unable to respond without a more clear idea of what you want to accomplish exactly.

 

cheers

So, I guess I am coming to a conclusion - It's impossible to use articulation sets with midi ports on VEPRO.

I am not sure where I haven't been clear but I will try to explain in other words just to make sure we are on the same page.

As far as I understand, articulations sets can switch articulations of multi-timbral instruments, be it one articulation per patch or several articulations per patch (KS). I have both types loaded up on VEPRO. That's not a problem, I can program the articulations sets accordingly.

On VEPRO I've got a bunch on string libraries loaded into a single VEP instance across 6 ports. But articulations sets can't "see" the ports, right?

For the Kontakt libraries, the solution has been the AG script.

Ok, now I can load any Kontakt library in any midi port and in any midi channel of the ports. I just have to set up the articulation sets and everything works like a charm.

But what about the other libraries that are non-Kontakt? They can't load the script.

So, how can I switch articulations of, for example, Hollywood 1st violins that are loaded on port 2 midi channel 6?

With or without articulation sets I can only play whatever articulation is loaded on channel 6 of Play (red rectangle).

How can I switch between all articulations (or channels) of Play in the blue rectangle?

Do I need a special script in Logic?

Ivan, that is also a savvy guy on this matter, said this complicated and he will try to find a solution in the coming days.

BTW, I forgot to couple VEPRO on the project I sent you. That's is why you could not see it.

Regarding the scripts, you saw very few ones because I still trying to figure out a way to make them work.

I've attached a new project in case you want to take another look at it.

Anyway, AU3 and Logic is an enigma and it's strange that there's almost nothing on the internet about it. I guess everybody, like Jay, gave up to use Logic and VEPRO like these after trying for a while.

I am about to throw the towel and go to Cubase.

So, I guess I am coming to a conclusion - It's impossible to use articulation sets with midi ports on VEPRO.

No its not impossible at all. I have described several ways that you can. What is not possible is to re-channelize notes spanning across multiple ports based on articulationID from the articulationSet alone, you need special Scripter support to do that.

As far as I understand, articulations sets can switch articulations of multi-timbral instruments, be it one articulation per patch or several articulations per patch (KS). I have both types loaded up on VEPRO. That's not a problem, I can program the articulations sets accordingly.

On VEPRO I've got a bunch on string libraries loaded into a single VEP instance across 6 ports. But articulations sets can't "see" the ports, right?

The port setting of the track is passed through the articulation set. For example if you have a track that is on port 5 channel 1 and you run it through an articulation set that re-channelizes the notes based on articulationID, then those notes will go to port 5, channels 1-16. So you can't use the articulation set itself to change the port, but you can still use multiple ports in VePro...because the track setting will set the port value and the articulationSet will just ignore it or pass it through as is.... the articulation set itself cannot CHANGE the port relative to the track setting...it can only change the midi channel. However, if you use Scripter solutions, then you can change the port with Scripter in various ways.

For the Kontakt libraries, the solution has been the AG script.

Ok, now I can load any Kontakt library in any midi port and in any midi channel of the ports. I just have to set up the articulation sets and everything works like a charm.

But what about the other libraries that are non-Kontakt? They can't load the script.

There are two separate concepts about "port". There is the AU3 port...which is understood by VePro.. 1-48. Then there are kontakt ports A,B,C,D. AG multi instance is somehow able to access those 4 Kontakt ports A,B,C,D. I shouldn't really comment bout AG much because I don't have it and I doubt there is a user manual either, so I really can't advise anything on it.

In the past version of AG, it could not access VePro ports. I do not know what the new version does, you have to ask Ivan for support, but what I can say in general is that anything related to VePro ports should work equally well without kontakt. But obviously the A,B,C,D ports of kontakt ...the multi-instance feature, are not supported in other plugins.

With or without articulation sets I can only play whatever articulation is loaded on channel 6 of Play (red rectangle).

No. In this case you have the track configured in LogicPro for channel 6, port 2. use the articulation Set to change the output channel per articulation to channels 6,7,8,9,10, etc.. They will arrive in VePro on port 2, channel 6,7,8,9,10, etc.. But you can't use articulation set to send any articulations from that instrument to port 3. For that you need Scripter.

Do I need a special script?

no, as long as you have 16 or less articulations per instrument.

Ivan, that is also a savvy guy on this matter, said this complicated and he will try to find a solution in the coming days.

I don't think its complicated without AG. It may be when using AG. Hope Ivan can help you with that.

Anyway, AU3 and Logic is an enigma

AU3 is not well supported by Apple yet. As Jay already explained, its still considered Beta feature. And VSL's VePro.AU3 plugin is also considered beta. In actual practice I have found that it works completely as expected, except that for some reason transport playing doesn't work. In other words if you're using a plugin that has its own sequencer that needs to run inside VePro and sync to the clock of your DAW... That does not work yet with LogicPro and VePro.AU3. But other then that, I have not found any other problems whatsoever. Now that being said, to my knowledge, VePro is the only AU3 plugin I have ever seen from anyone anywhere. So not a lot of people are using AU3 plugins of any kind. VSL did it in order to have more than 1 midi port in LogicPro. So here it is..but its still Beta.

I guess everybody, like Jay, gave up to use Logic and VEPRO like these after trying for a while.

I am about to throw the towel and go to Cubase.

A lot of people still use VePro with LogicPro... There are lots of ways to make it work. I own both LogicPro and Cubase they both have pros and cons but for me I keep sticking with LogicPro because of Scripter. But I'm also a retired software engineer with skills to code my own scripts...and most musicians simply are not. if it were not for that I would probably be on Cubase for orchestral work. But LogicPro has lots of other cool features too so who knows.

I always say, whether it’s a DAW or sample library, we are, in theory at least, smarter than software. So it only makes sense to figure out how it works best and adapt your workflow rather than trying to bend it to your will.

This ^^^^^^^

I always say, whether it’s a DAW or sample library, we are, in theory at least, smarter than software. So it only makes sense to figure out how it works best and adapt your workflow rather than trying to bend it to your will.

 

This ^^^^^^^

Dewdman42, my brotha from another motha.

so... This might be another bug related to AU3. I don't remember seeing this before so I don't know if its new or not.. but anyway, when using AU3 plugin (VePro), the output channel parameter of the articulation set is not taking effect at all. The keyswitches are being sent...but the re-channelizing is not happening. So this appears that ArticulationSets are not completely compatible with AU3 midi channel. Re-channelizing otherwise works perfectly fine in AU2 instrument tracks. And it can work fine with AU3 too if you use Scripter to do that part instead of the articulation set.

The reason I have not seen this before is because me personally, I use my Channelizer script to re-channelize notes rather then the ArticulationSet...so I've never run into it before.

I'd like other people to test this also and confirm its not just me and Leandro. And we should all report the bug to Apple.

Now then as to possible solutions for Leandro......

Option 1

Make AG work. Work with Ivan. I'm pretty sure that AG is using Scripter to re-channelize notes. So it will not have this problem.

Option 2

Try out my channelizer script. That will channelize the notes perfectly, however, you will not be able to use keyswitches in your articulation set. So if you are trying to combine key switching with re-channelizing in order to handle articulations, then channelizer will not suffice. If you can change the way you are working to avoid keyswitches and use purely re-channelizing (which is common on PLAY), then channelizer could work for you. Channelizer has the possibility to have some channelized instruments and some keyswitched instruments, but you can't combine them.

Option 3

Don't use AU3 at all.

In other words, it's currently impossible to do what I am trying to do unless I use special scripting. The one you provided can make it but needs some re-work and/or Apple needs to make articulation sets fully compatible with AU3.

I never meant to switch channels like port 2 ch1, port 2 ch2, port2 ch3...it would mean changing INSTRUMENTS and not articulations in my template. Sorry if I haven't been clear enough.

Now, before any final decision, let's recapitulate.

Is it possible to program articulation sets to, let's say:

Everything is channelized to VEPRO port 2 channel 6 and distributed across the internal channels of Play, like in the figure?

I've made my best effort to explain in multiple ways in my second language what I am trying to do. I don't know how else I should explain.

Never mind, Cubase is here waiting for me.

Thank you a lot!!!

I've made my best effort to explain in multiple ways in my second language what I am trying to do. I don't know how else I should explain.

Never mind, Cubase is here waiting for me.

 

Thank you a lot!!!

On a Mac? Wait until you see how inefficient Cubase is on a Mac with software instruments. Not to mention the learning curve to learn a new DAW.

Oh well, good luck, Leo,

I have gone back and forth between LogicPro and Cubase for the past year...always keep coming back to LogicPro though...mainly because of Scripter. They both have pros and cons. Cubase and LogicPro both have articulation support in the form of articulation sets and expression maps, both of which have pros and cons...and both of which are imperfect. In the end, with Scripter I can hack around the cons of LogicPro quite often, which I cannot do with Cubase.

Aside from that there is a long list of pros and cons of both platforms. I do prefer the way Cubase handles multi-timbral instruments in general. In the case of VePro, the VST3 version of the plugin handles 48 ports with total straightforwardness, while on LogicPro its a tap dance to get stuff like that happening, and this thread has exposed yet another bug with the AU3 version. So there is always that.

But in terms of re-channelizing events across ports, cubase can't do it either. Cubase is designed in such a way that your midi track has to choose which midi port to direct to, and there is no way to alter that dynamically with expression maps or any other method. LogicPro has more power with Scripter to be able to change the channel or port dynamically on the fly through a single signal path to the instrument....which means you can use Scripter to re-channelize across ports. You cannot do that with Cubase at all period.

Please watch here

Thanks for taking time to make that. For one thing you have VePro configured to only listen to channel 6. So of course the other articulations on other midi channels are not making it into PLAY. In VePro change the channel midi channel to ALL, so that all midi channels will be passed through VePro into PLAY so that PLAY can determine which articulation to play.

That's for starters..however as i already pointed out, you will still run into problems because AU3 will not work with articulation sets that are attempting to re-channelize events.

However, after you fix the above problem in your VePro mixer config, you may be able to get AG scripts to work.

Once again, I've got all Kontakt instruments perfectly working with the AG scripter. What's not working are the non-Kontakt players.

I have changed back to midi channel to ALL as I have done before and still not working. I loaded your script and still not working. Nothing, anything, nada!

But I have good news. I could make it work smoothly on Cubase!! Claps!

No hassle, no special scripting, nothing fancy. On Cubase, you only have to assign the midi port and midi channel, load the expression map and everything will work just fine.

my script absolutely works. You're missing a step somewhere. Probably you forgot to remove everything from the output section of the articulation set, as explained on the documentation for using my script.

You have to check with Ivan to get AG working. I'm confident it can be made to work. You probably are missing some detail in how to use it.

The fact its working with only Kontakt doesn't make sense to me, could be bugs in AG, I really can't say. Talk to Ivan.

This forum is to support LogicPro not Cubase, if you are switching to cubase after all then have a nice journey there and enjoy the Steinberg forum instead of here.

As I explained to you before, AU3 does not support re-channelizing notes from the articulation set due to the fact that its still a beta feature. If you use AU2 instrument, you will not have that problem. If you use scripter solutions such as AG or the free channelizer script then it can be made to work, but you have little details you are missing and perhaps not following instructions or perhaps do not understand fully how LogicPro works.

As I said earlier, Cubase cannot specify port anywhere in expression maps. You can only specify midi channel. What you are wanting to replicate from Cubase can be accomplished in LogicPro without scripter for AU2 instruments but not AU3 instruments. If you want to do it with AU3, then you will need to use Scripter scripts, such as AG or channelizer...and it can be done. You do not seem that motivated to figure it out, but rather only to complain about LogicPro, at which point my patience is running out. Good luck in your Cubase journey...

my script absolutely works. You're missing a step somewhere. Probably you forgot to remove everything from the output section of the articulation set, as explained on the documentation for using my script.

I did remove it, but it didn't work!

You have to check with Ivan to get AG working. I'm confident it can be made to work. You probably are missing some detail in how to use it.

Is this a joke? I've already explained multiple times that AG and Kontakt ARE WORKING FINE!!!

The fact its working with only Kontakt doesn't make sense to me, could be bugs in AG, I really can't say. Talk to Ivan.

I've already explained, also multiple times, that is working with Kontakt because I am using AG script on it, and AG doesn't have any way to interfere on other players.

With one email Ivan was able to understand what I am trying to do. But opposed to what I am getting here, he said this is not simple to be done with Logic and he would try to figure out.

This forum is to support LogicPro not Cubase, if you are switching to cubase after all then have a nice journey there and enjoy the Steinberg forum instead of here.

It looks like it's turning into an argument. I only said that I may switch to Cubase because things there are way easier, period!

Then you doubted that I would be able to make expression maps work there. I did it in less than ten minutes, and I thought it would be important to share.

As far as I can see, this forum is for helping Logic users with their struggles and is not praising the software. If you didn't like the comparison, which I think is quite good for the improvement of Logic, please hold your horses, but there's nothing to dislike.

As I explained to you before, AU3 does not support re-channelizing notes from the articulation set due to the fact that its still a beta feature. If you use AU2 instrument, you will not have that problem. If you use scripter solutions such as AG or the free channelizer script then it can be made to work, but you have little details you are missing and perhaps not following instructions or perhaps do not understand fully how LogicPro works.

Ok I will make sure to try AU2, but if it works I will lose the midi ports. Either way, I will have to decide what I have to let go if I use Logic.

As I said earlier, Cubase cannot specify port anywhere in expression maps. You can only specify midi channel.

Whatever it is, it's working fine on Cubase!

What you are wanting to replicate from Cubase can be accomplished in LogicPro without scripter for AU2 instruments but not AU3 instruments. If you want to do it with AU3, then you will need to use Scripter scripts, such as AG or channelizer...and it can be done.

I believe you, but I am becoming uncomfortable to come back here.

You do not seem that motivated to figure it out, but rather only to complain about LogicPro, at which point my patience is running out. Good luck in your Cubase journey...

I've been spending a couple of weeks browsing everywhere on the internet and writing here, over and over again, in multiple ways, for you to say that I am not motivated to figure out?

All right, our perspectives are going in opposite directions and I don't think it worth continuing.

Btw, I've read many threads where you've been involved and, like here, you were misunderstanding the input of others.

I truly appreciate your help so far but let's stop now. I will go in a straightforward way and make sure to not bother you over here anymore.

Let's take a bear and relax. Thank you!

my script absolutely works. You're missing a step somewhere. Probably you forgot to remove everything from the output section of the articulation set, as explained on the documentation for using my script.

I did remove it, but it didn't work!

well you are doing something wrong, because it works perfectly for myself and others. Do you want to try to solve that or not?

You have to check with Ivan to get AG working. I'm confident it can be made to work. You probably are missing some detail in how to use it.

Is this a joke? I've already explained multiple times that AG and Kontakt ARE WORKING FINE!!!

You said Kontakt is working fine and non-kontakt is not working fine. You can use AG for non-kontakt instruments too and I suspect it should work perfectly well with AU3 unless there are bugs in AG.

The fact its working with only Kontakt doesn't make sense to me, could be bugs in AG, I really can't say. Talk to Ivan.

I've already explained, also multiple times, that is working with Kontakt because I am using AG script on it, and AG doesn't have any way to interfere on other players.

With one email Ivan was able to understand what I am trying to do. But opposed to what I am getting here, he said this is not simple to be done with Logic and he would try to figure out.

You said that PLAY isn't working right with AG. Yes? If so then its not working fine. If you can get PLAY to work with both Kontak and PLAY then your problem will be solved! If not then perhaps there are bugs in AG that Ivan needs to address or perhaps you need to use it a different way.

This forum is to support LogicPro not Cubase, if you are switching to cubase after all then have a nice journey there and enjoy the Steinberg forum instead of here.

It looks like it's turning into an argument. I only said that I may switch to Cubase because things there are way easier, period!

Great! Enjoy your time on cubase. I use it sometimes too.

Then you doubted that I would be able to make expression maps work there. I did it in less than ten minutes, and I thought it would be important to share.

What I said is that cubase expression maps have no way to re-channelize across ports, which was true when I said it, and true right now. You do not appear to understand my english perhaps. You did not enable that in your example, you enabled a situation which can also be handled by AG, My Channelizer script and by articulation Sets also if you refrain from using AU3.

As far as I can see, this forum is for helping Logic users with their struggles and is not praising the software. If you didn't like the comparison, which I think is quite good for the improvement of Logic, please hold your horses, but there's nothing to dislike.

yes that is correct, but you have taken a rather aggressive attitudes towards myself and all I have tried to do is help you mate.

As I explained to you before, AU3 does not support re-channelizing notes from the articulation set due to the fact that its still a beta feature. If you use AU2 instrument, you will not have that problem. If you use scripter solutions such as AG or the free channelizer script then it can be made to work, but you have little details you are missing and perhaps not following instructions or perhaps do not understand fully how LogicPro works.

Ok I will make sure to try AU2, but if it works I will lose the midi ports. Either way, I will have to decide what I have to let go if I use Logic.

or you can use scripted solutions such as AG or channelizer.

As I said earlier, Cubase cannot specify port anywhere in expression maps. You can only specify midi channel.

Whatever it is, it's working fine on Cubase!

great, and it can work fine on LogicPro too if you go about it the correct way.

What you are wanting to replicate from Cubase can be accomplished in LogicPro without scripter for AU2 instruments but not AU3 instruments. If you want to do it with AU3, then you will need to use Scripter scripts, such as AG or channelizer...and it can be done.

I believe you, but I am becoming uncomfortable to come back here.

vaya con dios entonces..

I have said it before so I will say it one more time and then shut up. When working with a DAW, which is by definition already a complex engine as it is doing so many things, the more complexity you add to it to try to bend it to your will, the more likely it is that things will go wrong.

Leo is a great guy and very talented, but he is now emotionally committed to working a certain way that to my mind, opens too many cans of worms. Maybe Cubase will work better for the way he wants to work, maybe not. I wish him luck.