JoshJ Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 I just ran these 2 Logic benchmarks on my 2018 MacMini 6-core i7 32GB RAM against the new M1 Mac Mini 8-core 8GB RAM. I got the following results; Sculpture Benchmark (Per channel: Sculpture, Channel EQ, Multipressor, Chorus, AutoFilter, PlatinumVerb): MacMini M1 8-core 8GB RAM: 109 tracks (before System Overload) MacMini i7 6-core 32GB RAM: 82 tracks Alchemy Benchmark (Per channel: Alchemy only): MacMini M1 8-core 8GB RAM: 126 tracks MacMini i7 6-core 32GB RAM: 146 tracks I have some questions; Why does my machine (i7) perform better with the supposedly more system intensive Sculpture benchmark and the M1 Mini (more cores) perform better with the Alchemy Benchmark? I would have expected the M1 to outperform on both. How much is the difference in RAM factoring into these results? Also, could anyone hedge a guess at how many more tracks the M1 would likely be able to handle if it was the 16GB RAM version? Here's the benchmark if anyones interested. The creator has posted on LPH before: https://music-prod.com/logic-pro-x-benchmarks/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 It might be that Alchemy has a more complex audio engine that doesn't optimize for the M1 as well (or perhaps they are still working on optimising it because it was very heavily optimised for Intel). RAM is unlikely to make much of a practical difference, as long as you weren't maxing it out to a lot of swap (which you can check with Activity Monitor). More RAM does not make your CPU faster, it just reduces bottlenecks elsewhere in the system *if* a lack of RAM was slowing things down. What patch was playing in Alchemy? A sample based patch? A VA-based patched? An additive/granular patch? Does it make a difference in your benchmarks? (as they are very different synthesis modes with different performance characteristics.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRdungeon Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point yep. and the % difference seems to be pretty inline with other rosetta v native Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 What patch was playing in Alchemy I think it’s just a basic synth preset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point Got you. So I should base my judgment of the M1 on the Sulpture Benchmark (roughly 30tracks more able than the i7). And that performance boost will translate over the next few months to 3rd party plugins? So plugin developers have to rewrite for just BigSur or for how their plugins run on M1 specifically? Is that a big change in the code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRdungeon Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point Got you. So I should base my judgment of the M1 on the Sulpture Benchmark (roughly 30tracks more able than the i7). And that performance boost will translate over the next few months to 3rd party plugins? So plugin developers have to rewrite for just BigSur or for how their plugins run on M1 specifically? Is that a big change in the code? They have to re-write for Apple Silcon/M1 specifically. For some developers this could take a while, for example I emailed TB Pro Audio because DSEQ is a huge part of my workflow and they said probably around 3 months. But they're a small developer, so who knows how long the bigger guys will take Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 They have to recompile for M1, and in some cases, where the developer has done optimisations for specific features of the Intel architecture for performance reasons, they may have to rework some of those parts of the code. All this stuff will shake out over the coming year (welcome to transitions!) but in general, you can see how much more powerful and power efficient the M1 is over the Intel chips, and that will have a huge positive affect on running M1-based Mac systems in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skijumptoes Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Curious how the AVX2 reliant plugins port across. One presumes that's a more considerable hurdle to leap. Also, wonder how something like Massive X that does require it performs in Rosetta2 at this initial stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point yep. and the % difference seems to be pretty inline with other rosetta v native Are talking about Rosetta apps or plugins? What % lower performance difference at people seeing on the whole with Rosetta? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 yep. and the % difference seems to be pretty inline with other rosetta v native Are talking about Rosetta apps or plugins? What % lower performance difference at people seeing on the whole with Rosetta? 20-30% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skijumptoes Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Are talking about Rosetta apps or plugins? What % lower performance difference at people seeing on the whole with Rosetta? 20-30% 20-30% of what though? Of what the M1 'could' do natively? Or what their previous machine could do? I don't know how the comparison is formed, Because a 20-30% loss, as long as you're on a machine that is 30% faster than your old is still a gain even on Rosetta 2, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 20-30% 20-30% of what though? Of what the M1 'could' do natively? Or what their previous machine could do? I don't know how the comparison is formed, Because a 20-30% loss, as long as you're on a machine that is 30% faster than your old is still a gain even on Rosetta 2, right? 20-30% compared to same process running natively and yes, you're right. M1 13" via rosetta 2 is faster than any intel 13". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewdman42 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point The built in plugins are not actually plugins they are built in to the main executable. So if logicpro is running the Arm binary then so are they. Differences in performance are more likely related to either specific intel optimizations such as AVX which are not in ARM, or perhaps related to other ssd streaming bottlenecks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn L. Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 Looks like my next 'puter will be interesting, provided this one holds on a couple of more years. Or should I wait for their iQuantum chip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 Got you. So I should base my judgment of the M1 on the Sulpture Benchmark (roughly 30tracks more able than the i7). And that performance boost will translate over the next few months to 3rd party plugins? So plugin developers have to rewrite for just BigSur or for how their plugins run on M1 specifically? Is that a big change in the code? They have to re-write for Apple Silcon/M1 specifically. For some developers this could take a while, for example I emailed TB Pro Audio because DSEQ is a huge part of my workflow and they said probably around 3 months. But they're a small developer, so who knows how long the bigger guys will take You think the big guys will take longer or shorter than the small developers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Predicting how long software will take is notoriously problematic. Personally I don't really care too much, because it's the sensible thing during transitions to keep on working as you are, and casually monitor what's going on from the sidelines. Then once everything's settled down and shaken out, then start thinking about moving over, and what the pain points still are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 They have to re-write for Apple Silcon/M1 specifically. For some developers this could take a while, for example I emailed TB Pro Audio because DSEQ is a huge part of my workflow and they said probably around 3 months. But they're a small developer, so who knows how long the bigger guys will take You think the big guys will take longer or shorter than the small developers? really doesn't matter how big/small dev is, but how old their framework is and how reliant are they to x86 instruction set. U-he said it's far less problematic than they anticipated, Audiothing said it's not problematic since they're on Juce/Xcode and just need to recompile for ARM, Tone2 said it's a bit problematic but one of their synths is already ARM ready (Warlock), Reaper is already beta for ARM. So it really depends on what you depend on for programming your stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 You think the big guys will take longer or shorter than the small developers? really doesn't matter how big/small dev is, but how old their framework is and how reliant are they to x86 instruction set. U-he said it's far less problematic than they anticipated, Audiothing said it's not problematic since they're on Juce/Xcode and just need to recompile for ARM, Tone2 said it's a bit problematic but one of their synths is already ARM ready (Warlock), Reaper is already beta for ARM. So it really depends on what you depend on for programming your stuff I’m more reliant on my mix chain than synths at the moment. FabFilter, Waves, iZotope and Melodyne. Don’t suppose you known anything about how prepared those developers are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 FabFilter will work via rosetta 2 on Logic, and native version is in the works: https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/6375/macos-big-sur-compatibility iZotope https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/articles/360052231634-Compatibility-with-macOS-11-Big-Sur what i use from iZotope works on Big Sur - i imagine that they should work via Rosetta2. Melodyne4 works in Big Sur here normally, 5 i supposed should as well, haven't found anything about Celemony re: M1. As far as Waves go, that's probably going to be problematic. They're not the fastest to react and they tend to charge for compatibility updates - best bet for now is hope they work via rosetta. I also don't have any partially because of the aforementioned reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Wait - so it's confirmed that Logic, running natively on Apple Silicon, will still load *Intel* plugins in rosetta2? That seems... unlikely to me. It's not like they are apps, which can be converted when run - this is Intel native code being loaded into the Logic application... Source for someone who has done this and confirms it works? Or are you talking about running *Logic*, and all plugins, emulated in Rosetta2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 FabFilter will work via rosetta 2 on Logic, and native version is in the works:https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/6375/macos-big-sur-compatibility iZotope https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/articles/360052231634-Compatibility-with-macOS-11-Big-Sur what i use from iZotope works on Big Sur - i imagine that they should work via Rosetta2. Melodyne4 works in Big Sur here normally, 5 i supposed should as well, haven't found anything about Celemony re: M1. As far as Waves go, that's probably going to be problematic. They're not the fastest to react and they tend to charge for compatibility updates - best bet for now is hope they work via rosetta. I also don't have any partially because of the aforementioned reasons Thanks a lot. So just I’ve got this right, in terms of upgrading to a new M1 machine now, the consensus would that rosetta / unoptimised plugs will work around 30% slower than they would natively but that performance in the meantime would be made up by the increased performance of the M1 chip itself. So no real performance drop from a comparable Intel machine. And one would be investing in a future proof machine who’s performance will see a 30% or so increase as and when plugin developers release updates? I’m thinking of selling my i7 Mac mini before the price drops too much and therefore transitioning to M1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshJ Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 Also found this if it’s of use to anyone; https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/big-sur-audio-compatibility-chart#home/?view_1_page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ploki Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 And one would be investing in a future proof machine who’s performance will see a 30% or so increase as and when plugin developers release updates? I’m thinking of selling my i7 Mac mini before the price drops too much and therefore transitioning to M1. that's pretty much it. and i'm thinking about the same thing - but lack of thunderbolt ports worries me and also, i currently run 32gb of RAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roundabout Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Wait - so it's confirmed that Logic, running natively on Apple Silicon, will still load *Intel* plugins in rosetta2? Yes. Although, there are some exceptions that don't work. That seems... unlikely to me. It's not like they are apps, which can be converted when run - this is Intel native code being loaded into the Logic application... The trick is that it's not being loaded into the Logic process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Interesting - thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRdungeon Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 really doesn't matter how big/small dev is, but how old their framework is and how reliant are they to x86 instruction set. U-he said it's far less problematic than they anticipated, Audiothing said it's not problematic since they're on Juce/Xcode and just need to recompile for ARM, Tone2 said it's a bit problematic but one of their synths is already ARM ready (Warlock), Reaper is already beta for ARM. So it really depends on what you depend on for programming your stuff I’m more reliant on my mix chain than synths at the moment. FabFilter, Waves, iZotope and Melodyne. Don’t suppose you known anything about how prepared those developers are? I've seen videos of people using the first three fine under Rosetta. I have a M1 mac mini arriving today so I'm gonna be testing those first three aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRdungeon Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I would guess that only the main Logic app itself is optimised for apple silicon, and maybe a few plugins. Alchemy is essentially a third party plugin they purchased and put in Logic, so it could still be running in Rosetta mode at this point The built in plugins are not actually plugins they are built in to the main executable. So if logicpro is running the Arm binary then so are they. Differences in performance are more likely related to either specific intel optimizations such as AVX which are not in ARM, or perhaps related to other ssd streaming bottlenecks. That is interesting, I suppose that's why the 'Apple AU' Audio Units that show up around Mac OS are seperate things both in the plugin menu (under audio units) and the fact that they appear at all outside Logic in the system compared to the other Logic plugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 Yes, those actually are plugins and come as part of MacOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 I’m more reliant on my mix chain than synths at the moment. FabFilter, Waves, iZotope and Melodyne. Don’t suppose you known anything about how prepared those developers are? I've seen videos of people using the first three fine under Rosetta. I have a M1 mac mini arriving today so I'm gonna be testing those first three aswell Do you own any RAM hungry orchestral libraries? If so, please, please load them up and let us know how this machine with its limited RAM deals with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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