A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

 
yellow_lupine
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Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:24 am

Hi everyone,

I am planning to move my current Cubase project to Logic and I wonder how to correctly handle articulation changes.
In Cubase I have a single VE Pro plugin, connected to a unique VE Pro server instance hosting about 70 VSL instruments.
Could you please tell me how should I configure Logic to use that single server instance?
Many of VSL articulations require more than three output parameters and if I have well understood, the only way to circumvent that limitation is by using a Scripter plugin on every midi track, is that correct?

I have tried VSL supplied templates but they support only 8 ports per server instance and the solo/mute buttons of the tracks are linked, I can’t mute a single track only.
I have also tried the multi-instruments template illustrated at viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143416&p=763950&hilit=articulation+vsl and that seems to support more than 8 ports and the solo/mute buttons on the tracks are not linked, but I lost the possibility to insert MIDI FX plugin into them because their channel strips don’t permit plugin attachment.

I am a bit confused and sorry if that has already been questioned before.
Hope you can help :)
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 am

Are you using VePro6 or VePro7

Don't use the VSL templates from VSL, they have bugs. Glad you found mine, linked above, but make sure you're on VePro7 and at least LogicPro 10.4.5 in order to use them.

The track muting problem is common in all logicPro multi-timbral instruments...and in this case the VePro plugin is functioning as multi-timbral. That is a quirk of LogicPro. You can search the forum for more info about muting multi-timbral instrument tracks.. There are some work arounds, but probably none you will like, I recommend you add the ON/OFF button to your track header and use that instead of Mute.

I didn't understand exactly whey you feel you need to use a Scripter plugin for the "3 output parameters". Please explain that more.

But in LogicPro, you only have one instrument channel strip for each instrument plugin. In this case you're using one plugin instance of VePro.AU3...which is connected to the one VePro instance with your 80 channels in it. It is basically a single multi-timbral instrument, on a single instrument channel in LogicPro.

Another important concept in LogicPro is that tracks and channels are two completely different things. when you create a new track in LogicPro, it automatically creates a channel for you and links it up to the track. And they have a lot of GUI magic going on to present them to you as if its one thing, but they are actually two distinct things...

With a multi-timbral instrument you basically end up with 80 Tracks that are connected to one instrument channel (that is hosting VePro.AU3).

Scripter and other MIDIFX reside on instrument channels, not the tracks.

So..

whatever Scripter processing you feel you need to do has to be handled on one Scripter script.. That script needs too be smart enough to handle all 80 Channels independently if necessary....because all midi data from those 80 tracks will funnel through that one script on its way to VePro.AU3.

But again...why do you need a script?
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
yellow_lupine
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:05 am

Hi Dewdman42,

thanks for your response :)

I am using VePro 7 and Logic 10.6.
The ON/OFF button strategy is great, I'll use that.
Regarding the output parameters of the articulation I mean that Logic permits me to setup three parameters only in the output tab of articulation set editor, while many of the VSL instruments I am using need for example three keyswitches and one controller to properly select the desired articulation (Synchron String I for example).
I understood that only by using a Scripter it's possible to send more then three events but I am probably wrong.
Is there a better way you can guide me through?
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:20 am

Yea you're probably right about that and unfortunately there is not a great solution. The AG articulation toolkit is the only commercial solution I am aware of that will support more than 3 keyswitches per instrument.. I don't use it, so I can't comment further. Or you can script your own of course.

But as I said, in order to script your own it will get very complicated fast..because your script will need to be aware of all 80 channels within one script and send the right keyswitches on a per-channel basis. It is definitely possible. There is not an easy solution here.

Also be advised, that when the Articulation Set sends any keyswitches at all in the OUTPUT section, it also strips the articulationID off of the notes before sending it through Scripter. So if you want your scripter script to read the articulationID to determine what keyswitches to send, then you have to make sure the ArticulationSet OUTPUT section is empty...so that articulationID will not be stripped off.

Some people opt to using only one instrument per VePro instance. That doesn't fit your cubase workflow where its all in one VePro instance, but anyway if you use only one instrument per VePro instance (yes you'd have 80 VePro instances), then each track would NOT be multi-timbral. In that case you'd have one scripter script for each track/channel and you'd have a mute button that works as expected.

With each Scripter script handling just one instrument track, the keyswitch scripting would be much more simple and manageable to do...and for many of your instruments you might not need it. Even in VSL its possible often to do things with less keyswitching, you just have to save more user presets, with each preset being more customized to quick access to the articulations you need with only 3 keyswitches or less..which is probably what I would encourage you to do rather then getting into deep scripter scripting..
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
yellow_lupine
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:36 am

Thanks for your suggestions, I will definitely try editing VSL presets in order to reduce the needed keyswitches, otherwise I'll look at AG toolkit.
Is it possible in Logic to have a separate articulation lane like the one provided in Cubase?
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:38 am

No LogicPro doesn't provide any kind of articulation lane.
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
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Ashermusic
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:22 pm

But if you set it up, you can easily view and edit them in the Event List.
Mac mini 3.2 Six Core i7 w/ OSX 10.14

Composer, Logic Pro X Certified Trainer
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salom78
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:05 am

Hi
I've been following this thread as clear as I can but probably I've missed something -but I try to post this and see if anyone have the solution for me.

I'd like to try the articulation sets by my own for Vienna and logic X before go further to download Babylon waves. I've downloaded the template that was linked somewhere here for VSL AU but I cant get the articulation sets work. But when I create an empty logic project and choose a software track and change it to VSL it works - its like I need to have one instance per track. but that should not be the idea i guess - and not with 40 instruments.

https://vimeo.com/557502229 Not working

https://vimeo.com/557504182 Working (one instance per track/instr)

Can any one see what the mane issue is?

Best regards
Martin
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:47 am

Please post the logicpro project file that isn’t working
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
salom78
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:06 am

Thanks for your interest!
Might this link work maybe?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ees16pst1g8i ... DqBPa?dl=0
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:36 pm

This looks like you're using the old Templates from VSL site, which have bugs. Don't use them.

Are you using VePro6 or VePro7?
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:42 pm

also the general problem with VePro6 is that in order to have multiple ports, there is some environment trickery that is done, the template from Vsl is broken completely honestly, I made a better template to work in a similar fashion for VePro6, but I see to recall that articulation sets don't entirely work right with that either as the articulation Set output keyswitches seem to bypass the environment...so in this case, the cc99 messages that are supposed to be inserted by the environment don't get inserted in front of keyswitches....so they never make it to the right port.

I highly recommend you switch to VePro7 and use AU3 templates for multi-midi-port VePro use.
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:44 pm

Here are improved multi-port templates I made to use with VePro6, you can give them a try, but no garauntees that Articulation Sets will work. Worth a try: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

If you upgrade to VePro7, then use these AU3 templates instead: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143416
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram
 
salom78
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:13 pm

I’m using VEP7.

So worthfull information -thanks a lot!
I’ll try to build it up again with your template and hope it works better.

Cheers
 
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Karmand
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:43 am

Dewdman42; very similar system configuration here... quick question, and feel free to PM me if not applicable in this thread. I do use VEP7 as well, and have been working on a template that I can live with and seems to work fine.
I am interested in knowing what are the drawbacks - pros/cons of using a track, creating 16 aux tracks off that, each with it's own midi channel, then feeding that with 1 instance from VEP7?

Make sense? I do not see a slow down, I have volume controls on each instrument I bring into Logic.
I make one VEP7 Instance Woodwinds, another Brass, another Strings etc... or whatever I'm working on.
I have several Master instances per library for quick access and I have built VEP7 instances with my Favorite Woods, or Brass as I see fit. I have one Perc, one Tuned Perc, Several Strings and some specialty...
In Logic I track stack each "Track/Instance" and I also HIDE any of the 16 that I am not using.
Do I run out if I need more than 16 Strings parts? Yes, Duplicate the track, my aux channels show up and I add them fast.
I created a template with at least 7 instances/tracks each with 16 midi channels and can expand or hide non used instrument auxs.

I dunno, I never read about doing it this way; I just did it.
Any comments for learning would be great...and any comments about OpenCore and Our Macs welcome - there are glitches with that, booting, making Thunderbolt work etc... quitting Logic and it thinks it crashed...
Different topic. Thanks. nubi to VEP7 and all this since April.
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, 5,1 MacPro 2 6 core 3.5 ghz 64gb ram with Titan Ridge Thunderbolt card and eGPU 5700XT various NVMEs in a quad card holder
 
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Dewdman42
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Re: Articulation sets and Vienna Ensemble Pro

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:03 am

Opencore is not related here

The aux track trick is an undocumented feature of logicpro that works great in certain circumstances. If you like that approach then use it! It is limited to 16 midi channels per vepro instance so does not make use of AU3. In that case use the AU2 vepro plugin. I haven’t used that mode in a while there could be other implications related to pdc, articulation sets or other things, let us know how it goes
OSX 10.15 (Catalina) on OpenCore - Logic Pro 10.6.1, VePro7, Mainstage3
5,1 MacPro 3.46ghz x 12 96gb ram