Comp swiping question

I love this feature and have been using it for many, many months.

Just a question.

I record in a suitcase many takes (up to a dozen) live audio. No metronome.

So I line the takes up with the scissor tool as best as I can that pick and choose.

As this is classical music and therefore each take will be slightly longer or shorter invariably I will end up after a short time with the takes unaligned.

What I do is I cut out a small portion of the take I would like to use and therefore I can move it without upsetting any previous parts of the take that were aligned.

I, of course, can use the scissor tool in the comp swiping to "undo" any cuts.

But just for curiosity's sake is there any other way to do this without removing miniscule pieces of each take?

Here is a picture so you can see clearly the missing bits :

Thanks for the reply.

The problem is that I physically erase a minuscule portion of each take to be able to move it without messing up previous edits in the same take.

I can use the scissors tool, of course, to "reinstate" the missing bits. It is no problem and of course I always have a backup of the original.

It just seems odd that one must cut pieces out of each take to be able to move it. I understand the conception is that the take is a whole entity. So, therefore, should be moved as such.

But for example, if I take a few seconds from take "7" then jump to take "5" then to take "3" then want a bit from the original take "7" it will inevitably be misaligned.

So to add the new bit from take "7" to follow take "3" the only way I have been able to do so is by cutting out this miniscule piece. Therefore now take "7" is cut into two pieces and can thus be moved around.

For the time being I have never had to go back on such a decision. I figured out that with the scissor tool one could put back the missing bit.

But it still is odd.

It seems Logic X Comp Swiping is more effective with a metronome and studio music where each take is absolutely 100% lined up.

One option is to bite the bullet and use a metronome. Then you can simply use the quick swipe comp feature to get the perfect comp in minutes.

If natural tempo variations are necessary (I.e. classical music) you could make one take focusing primarily on getting the tempo variation exactly as you want it, then beat grid the tempo track to that take. Now you can use metronome and it will reflect the variations in that first take. Now all subsequent takes will match up with the first take and quick swipe comping can be used.

One more thing I’d recommend. Make less takes (four or five for example) and simplify the comping process further. If you need more takes than that to get enough good bits to make a perfect comp, practice the piece more until you can get by with just a few takes. This will also result in a much more natural flow in the final product (as you won’t be combining bits from so many different performances/interpretations).

It seems Logic X Comp Swiping is more effective with a metronome and studio music where each take is absolutely 100% lined up.

Did you try my suggestion of using Flex?

Another method I use for classical guitar parts is to use separate tracks for each take instead of using a take folder (“suitcase”). Then cut the best bits from each take and place them on a whole new track. Key commands to split region at play head, and align region to end of precious region, colorize region (change color for the bits I like) etc. help speed up the process.

Great! Thanks for sharing robinloops. When I started this whole thing and stared teaching I truly thought there was one right way to do it and everybody doing it any other way just.. didn't know any better. Fast Forward (a little too quickly for my taste) to today and I realize how much I was wrong, and there are as many right way to do it as there are people doing it. The only correct workflow is the one that suits you, your methodology, and the way your brain works.

Actually, I'm recording 17th century music. So no one cannot use a metronome.

Why?

It's like jazz. Each and every take will have different ornaments, notes, dynamics and rubato.

If you play with a metronome it sounds like computer music.

Before I started recording myself I was recorded for over 20 years by majors like Universal.

I then used the same techniques the majors were using.

That being said I incorporated comp swiping and suitcases and such to make editing easier.

The way many still function in the baroque music world is the producer will mark each and every take.

Then you take one take that is considered the "base" and then add corrections often to only a single note.

If you think of it is nothing to do with what a live baroque musician will play like, but since at least the 1980s is what the audience wants and expects in a baroque recording.

I even asked one record label to leave slight imperfections on one CD. The other musicians were very angry after.

So, in an ideal editing world it would be much, much easier to have only a few takes and all recorded with the metronome.

But it will never work for my kind of music.

If you want to listen to some of this here is one for free on youtube :

One option is to bite the bullet and use a metronome. Then you can simply use the quick swipe comp feature to get the perfect comp in minutes.

 

If natural tempo variations are necessary (I.e. classical music) you could make one take focusing primarily on getting the tempo variation exactly as you want it, then beat grid the tempo track to that take. Now you can use metronome and it will reflect the variations in that first take. Now all subsequent takes will match up with the first take and quick swipe comping can be used.

 

One more thing I’d recommend. Make less takes (four or five for example) and simplify the comping process further. If you need more takes than that to get enough good bits to make a perfect comp, practice the piece more until you can get by with just a few takes. This will also result in a much more natural flow in the final product (as you won’t be combining bits from so many different performances/interpretations).

Another method I use for classical guitar parts is to use separate tracks for each take instead of using a take folder (“suitcase”). Then cut the best bits from each take and place them on a whole new track. Key commands to split region at play head, and align region to end of precious region, colorize region (change color for the bits I like) etc. help speed up the process.

Indeed! That is how exactly I did for years before.

I find the comp swiping much faster, and also because you have all the takes all nicely stacked up it is so easy to pick and choose.

You can even be ultra-fussy and if you don't like even one single note pick another one from the 5 - 9 other takes available.

It seems Logic X Comp Swiping is more effective with a metronome and studio music where each take is absolutely 100% lined up.

Did you try my suggestion of using Flex?

 

flex.gif

Thank you for the answer.

That doesn't seem to be able to solve my original problem, which in the end is not a problem.

That is :

- if I move any part of the take around as you are doing with the flex tool how can I easily restore that take to its original form?

- when I use my method, i.e. that is cutting minuscule parts out of the take I can restore it back to its original form by using once again the scissors tool.

I was just wondering if there were any simpler way to go about this.

I repeat the Logic of Logic X is that once you have taken a piece out of the take it is now two different parts and therefore can be moved around.

Makes sense but just it is cumbersome if I need to "unknit" the take.

I may have not been clear enough.

Here is a picture that will, I hope, make my thoughts easier to understand.

I have chosen to start with take "5".

At bar 5.75 I now will use take "7".

Even so earlier on take "7" the second phrase arrived slightly earlier than take "5".

So to be able to go seamlessly from one take to the other I was obliged to cut out a tiny bit of take "7" as indicated by the green arrow.

I, as previously mentioned can undo this with the scissor tool as indicated by the orange arrow.

The whole question is besides cutting pieces out or using flex is there any other way?

So to be able to go seamlessly from one take to the other I was obliged to cut out a tiny bit of take "7" as indicated by the green arrow.

I don't see any actual cuts on your screenshots, did you simply drag the left edge of that selection of take 7 slightly toward the right to create that gap?

I, as previously mentioned can undo this with the scissor tool as indicated by the orange arrow.

Oh ok that's not the Scissors tool, that's the Quick Swipe Comping button, which toggles QSC off and on. When you see scissors that means QSC is off so that you can edit takes as if they were regular regions, cut them, resize them, move them etc.

I'm not entirely clear exactly how you created that gap that your green arrow points to?

I had a similar situation a few year ago, I just ended up unpacking the take folder to new tracks, in a summing stack.. it was much easier to do moves, fades, and other edits like this.. using Solo to hear each track instead of take selection.. but it may have got easier to perform the kind of edits you need in a take folder.

Sorry, that probably doesn't help much! Just another option of workflow..

Sorry I just reposted another clearer (I hope) explanation with the corresponding screen shot.

If the flex tool is just a question of removing the flex markers I'll give it a shot!

Thanks.

So to be able to go seamlessly from one take to the other I was obliged to cut out a tiny bit of take "7" as indicated by the green arrow.

I don't see any actual cuts on your screenshots, did you simply drag the left edge of that selection of take 7 slightly toward the right to create that gap?

 

I, as previously mentioned can undo this with the scissor tool as indicated by the orange arrow.

Oh ok that's not the Scissors tool, that's the Quick Swipe Comping button, which toggles QSC off and on. When you see scissors that means QSC is off so that you can edit takes as if they were regular regions, cut them, resize them, move them etc.

 

I'm not entirely clear exactly how you created that gap that your green arrow points to?

Gap created by moving take "7" to the right.

Gap created by moving take "7" to the right.

Ok I finally understand what you mean. So in that example you had already comped from take 5 to take 7 at that point, then you moved take 7 to the right which resulted in that small gap, correct? And what you want is to avoid that gap? I suppose it's unavoidable for the gap to be created if you are moving the take after comping.

On the other hand, you should be able to remove the gap simply by clicking the waveform of the take you want to use during that gap in Quick Swipe Comping mode (use Option-Q to toggle QSC mode off and on):

Gap created by moving take "7" to the right.

Ok I finally understand what you mean. So in that example you had already comped from take 5 to take 7 at that point, then you moved take 7 to the right which resulted in that small gap, correct? And what you want is to avoid that gap? I suppose it's unavoidable for the gap to be created if you are moving the take after comping.

 

On the other hand, you should be able to remove the gap simply by clicking the waveform of the take you want to use during that gap in Quick Swipe Comping mode (use Option-Q to toggle QSC mode off and on):

 

quick-swipe-comping.gif

Thank you.

Yes as discombobulated as my original post was, yes I had figured that out.

But when you end up with a dozen gaps and in 9 different takes it becomes cumbersome to undo it that way.

It may just be that the flex solution is, maybe, easier. It seems, correct me if I am wrong, that I can just toggle all the flex edits on and off with one simple manoeuvre?

Another terminology thing why is the scissor icon in comp swiping considered a "toggle switch" when visually it is a scissors. True there is an actual scissors tool but this is confusing...

Scissors are the universal symbol for editing, because back in the day you would edit analog tape or film rolls with scissors. For example, in the Control bar, the Editors button also has a scissors symbol. Back to the QSC button, when QSC mode is on it shows you three little takes to indicate you can swipe to comp, when it's off it shows you scissors to indicate you can edit regions.

As for Flex, you can undo the edits by bringing your mouse over the Flex markers and clicking on the X that appears above them. or clicking the makers with an Eraser tool. Still that's something you'll have to experiment with to get a feel for it yourself as Flex editing can also be finicky and you may not like it.

I don't believe there's one ideal workflow for what you're doing, but there are many ways to tackle it. Working with normal tracks is another, as was mentioned previously here. So ultimately you're the one who knows best what workflow suits you the best, so experiment with the different ideas and see what works best for you. You may end up realizing that what you were doing all along was just fine after all.

I've done a lot of classical music editing like that, and it takes time, there's no way around it. I remember spending a great deal of time finding the best position for the recordings, the best edit point, the best type of fade, curve, length for each individual edit etc. So unless I'm on a super strict deadline, when I have to do that kind of work I take my time, relax, dont try to rush it and try to enjoy the process.

Have fun!

PS: Finally found a mn to listen to your YouTube link. It's beautiful!!! Wow that kind of music really makes me shiver. I love the sound of the instrument too. J'ai cliqué le petit pouce bleu!

Scissors are the universal symbol for editing, because back in the day you would edit analog tape or film rolls with scissors. For example, in the Control bar, the Editors button also has a scissors symbol. Back to the QSC button, when QSC mode is on it shows you three little takes to indicate you can swipe to comp, when it's off it shows you scissors to indicate you can edit regions.

 

As for Flex, you can undo the edits by bringing your mouse over the Flex markers and clicking on the X that appears above them. or clicking the makers with an Eraser tool. Still that's something you'll have to experiment with to get a feel for it yourself as Flex editing can also be finicky and you may not like it.

 

I don't believe there's one ideal workflow for what you're doing, but there are many ways to tackle it. Working with normal tracks is another, as was mentioned previously here. So ultimately you're the one who knows best what workflow suits you the best, so experiment with the different ideas and see what works best for you. You may end up realizing that what you were doing all along was just fine after all.

 

I've done a lot of classical music editing like that, and it takes time, there's no way around it. I remember spending a great deal of time finding the best position for the recordings, the best edit point, the best type of fade, curve, length for each individual edit etc. So unless I'm on a super strict deadline, when I have to do that kind of work I take my time, relax, dont try to rush it and try to enjoy the process.

 

Have fun!

 

PS: Finally found a mn to listen to your YouTube link. It's beautiful!!! Wow that kind of music really makes me shiver. I love the sound of the instrument too. J'ai cliqué le petit pouce bleu!

Hey David,

Thanks again!

I have one last piece and tomorrow I'll try it your way.

Yes, there are many solutions for the same job.

As I run my own label I spend hours, days, weeks getting it correct.

Make even ridiculous edits like a thirty-second note (just for the fun of being able to do it).

For the time being, I've never gone back on one of my edits, and I always work on a backup copy so the original is left unscathed.

It just for peace of mind to know if there is an easy way to undo all without having to resort to Logic's previous version and maybe really make a big mess.

Here if you'd like another piece recently recorded from 1620-30 England. One of Charles 1 greatest composers and I think one of the greatest before Purcell.

Simon Ives =

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=6ceAxp9zqOo&feature=share

Another method I use for classical guitar parts is to use separate tracks for each take instead of using a take folder (“suitcase”). Then cut the best bits from each take and place them on a whole new track. Key commands to split region at play head, and align region to end of precious region, colorize region (change color for the bits I like) etc. help speed up the process.

I use a similar workflow for rock music that is not recorded to a click, though as I'm comping multitrack band performances I'll lay out the takes sequentially on the timeline and comp to a "master take" at the start of the timeline. This is the same workflow I'd use editing a multitrack analog master, so it's comfortable for my particular brain.

The problems @marais is running into are solved by source-destination editing (aka "2/3/4-point editing") used in Pyramix, Sequoia, and other DAWs that are so prevalent in the classical recording world.

That said, I have learned so much about Logic's editing capabilities from this thread. Thank you all!

Another method I use for classical guitar parts is to use separate tracks for each take instead of using a take folder (“suitcase”). Then cut the best bits from each take and place them on a whole new track. Key commands to split region at play head, and align region to end of precious region, colorize region (change color for the bits I like) etc. help speed up the process.

 

I use a similar workflow for rock music that is not recorded to a click, though as I'm comping multitrack band performances I'll lay out the takes sequentially on the timeline and comp to a "master take" at the start of the timeline. This is the same workflow I'd use editing a multitrack analog master, so it's comfortable for my particular brain.

 

The problems @marais is running into are solved by source-destination editing (aka "2/3/4-point editing") used in Pyramix, Sequoia, and other DAWs is so prevalent in the classical recording world.

 

That said, I have learned so much about Logic's editing capabilities from this thread. Thank you all!

Thanks for the info.

I used Reaper years ago when I was recording on a PC and then of course Audacity.

Logic X does have so many qualities but this may be one of its defaults.

Tomorrow I will give the flex time a shot, I've used it of course before to slow or speed things up.

I will quickly see if it deforms the takes as often I'll jump back and forth to them so I need them all to stay perfectly in time and not be "bent out of shape".

I used Reaper years ago when I was recording on a PC and then of course Audacity.

Logic X does have so many qualities but this may be one of its defaults.

I've used Reaper quite a lot as well -- it was my primary DAW before migrating to Logic. There's a paid source-destination editing extension to Reaper available called "Cohler Classical" which seems promising for those who need that functionality but don't want to spend huge amounts of money for specialized DAWs.

Logic is very much rooted in the bars-and-beats world, and the default actions of the tools seem to reflect this. Coming from the analog tape/Pro Tools world I have struggled a bit to find workflows that make sense in my head, but the more I learn the more I am impressed with the depth of Logic's capabilities.

Tomorrow I will give the flex time a shot, I've used it of course before to slow or speed things up.

I will quickly see if it deforms the takes as often I'll jump back and forth to them so I need them all to stay perfectly in time and not be "bent out of shape".

It's all under your control, you just have to position your Flex markers carefully. For example in my video I used the Marquee tool to select a piece of waveform, then bring the mouse pointer in the upper half of the waveform to get the hand tool and move the selection. That does not stretch the selection. Better to use Slicing mode anyway. And turn off Fill Gaps in the inspector.

Hello there,

I've just started to try the flex option.

I did as you did, in the little video, used the marquee tool and then using the little hand moved a bit to line it up from one take to another.

Now, and correct me if I'm wrong, this will not work, as you can see by my image it leaves a gap after the bit I moved over.

It seems it would be overly cumbersome to have to select the whole track each time I wanted to move a piece.

My method by cutting out little pieces seems more efficient.

The only problem is if I want to rescind on the whole editing process, sometimes over 30 or more edits I have to do that individually.

Is there something I did not got correct for the flex option?

Thanks in advance.

Weird I did the same as all the other images I posted) here if it does not show up (just edited the html tag again : https://ibb.co/dWSrQnV

I actually fixed all your previous images manually myself.

Try this: How to attach files to your post

Ok seeing it now.

So I'm not sure how it was before, nor do I understand what you wish there was in lieu of that gap you're pointing at with the arrow?