Tempo Stuff! Banging my head against the wall!!!

Hi! I'm new to the forum and hope I can get some much needed help! I'm fairly well versed in Logic, having been a user for over a decade. But now I'm totally stuck on a tempo mapping issue and it's driving me to drink, lol.

 

A little background first. I received an old standalone digital multitrack recorder (A Tascam) from a client, with instructions to extract the tracks from an old session he had done on it and basically finish his production. Add more tracks, fix existing ones, mix, master. The whole bit.

 

So of course I started by exporting all the material from the old machine and getting them into Logic Pro X. So far so good, of course.

 

The project was recorded in a free tempo, no grid, and at first I thought no problem, I'll just work that way also. So I let the Logic tempo stay at 120, turned the click off and just started freehanding. I've added both MIDI and audio tracks.

 

Can you see where this is going?

 

OK, so now the project has grown. It calls for some snare drum parts, percussion etc, which should be quantized to something. No problem, I thought, I will just create a tempo map from the original piano track. Easy peasy. NO!!

 

Once I created the 6/8, fluctuating-tempo grid, I thought my problems were over. It clicks along fine to the original piano performance, but guess what? The MIDI tracks that I'd recorded insist on interpreting the new tempo grid instead of staying exactly how they are.

 

SOME, but NOT ALL the audio tracks also do the same thing. I think it's the ones I've already used Flex on to fix some pitch issues. They will not stay independent of the new tempo grid, but adapts to it instead, putting the whole thing way out of sync, stretching and flexing. It makes no difference if I use KEEP or ADAPT in the smart tempo settings. I've tried deleting tempo info from the tracks, but it does nothing. As soon as the stems 'see' the new project tempo grid, they change. Doesn't matter if I turn flex off for the track.

 

ALL I WANT is for my ALL stems and tracks (MIDI too!) to stay exactly as they are, playing back exactly as before, just superimposed over a newly created tempo grid to which I can quantize later tracks that I'll make. How hard could this be???? I've done similar things before, but for whatever reason it WILL NOT WORK on this particular project!!

 

HELP!!

 

Where the heck am I going wrong???

Inge said:

Where the heck am I going wrong???

I think you know exactly where you went wrong. You stated "Can you see where this is going?", knowing full well where this is going.

In a perfect world, Beatmapping is the first thing you do after recording/importing wild (ie. off-grid) audio- and/or MIDI tracks, like I described here:

Once you involve Flex, you are referencing your audio to Logic's grid and if you then move that grid to where you think it should be, audio (which already is where it should be) will follow, that's the whole point of Flex, but this moves audio off, obviously.

At this point, all you can do is bounce-in-place your flexed Regions, disengage Flex, then Beat Map. Then you can begin to quantize and edit to the grid and even add Flex.

As for the MIDI regions, before you beat map or manipulate your tempo, select them all and choose Functions > Lock SMPTE Positions.

Actually beat mapping not only preserves audio position in time (not beat), but MIDI position in time (not beat) as well, without SMPTE-locking:

 

Indeed! Did I remember wrong or was the behavior different in earlier Logic versions?

It was always like this.

 

Apple caused a fair bit of vaguely similar confusion with the Protect MIDI checkbox. Many folks (including me) thought it's the same as SMPTE-lock and wondered about its redundancy, but it's the exact opposite, it locks MIDI to its beat position, ie. moves it away from audio during the beat map process. Now I wonder what the point of that might be...

I suppose it's for making a rigid MIDI programming follow your rubato audio recording (assuming you weren't listening to the rigid MIDI programming while recording your rubato audio obviously).

Thank you all for your replies. I will have another go at this later today.

 

I think I will do what the first poster suggested - duplicate the session, bounce everything in place, turn flex OFF, OFF, OFF!!! - and create a tempo grid then.

 

I recognize that I put the cart before the horse by not realizing earlier I would need a tempo grid, but Christ on a stick, how hard could this be??? Lol.

how hard could this be???

As I stated in my description of the process, it takes roughly the runtime of the material + 5min for a perfect result. If it gets harder than that, you're doing it wrong.

Ok. I’m still a little unclear on how to get the already recorded midi to play correctly in the new tempo grid. Will smpte lock work, or is that bit just a lost cause?

If you beat map, MIDI and audio stay in place, you're just moving the grid.

Hm, that’s exactly what I’m not experiencing. Midi moves position and changes tempo, as does previously flexed audio. (That last part I get why)

Can you give me step by step instructions on what exactly I need to do, pretending I’m stupid? (Maybe I am lol)

 

I’ll pay you!

Hm, that’s exactly what I’m not experiencing. Midi moves position and changes tempo, as does previously flexed audio. (That last part I get why)

MIDI moves and changes tempo... audibly or visually?

Both, I think. Certainly audibly. Starts in wrong place, plays back at way wrong tempo. Doesn’t help to manually line it up. Tempo still wrong.

Both, I think. Certainly audibly. Starts in wrong place, plays back at way wrong tempo. Doesn’t help to manually line it up. Tempo still wrong.

Make some tests in an empty project, record some MIDI, bounce it in place as audio, see what behavior you're getting when beat mapping?

Already did that. Works like a charm when I do it in an empty project.

Ok so now you need to determine what the behavior is in your current project. You need to be able measure exactly what's going on. My guess so far is that your MIDI notes don't move in time, they move only in respect to the grid, because by beat mapping or creating tempo changes you're affecting the grid. You need to test this out and measure it, for example by bouncing the MIDI to audio and then beat mapping and comparing the MIDI/Audio sync.

Inge, are you using Logic 10.6 ? Perhaps it helps to set "Flex & follow" to "off" in the header of new tracks which should not adapt tempo changes before you import. I am currently too at that point and I am not 100% sure.

Curious to hear what the 'whole new thing' is... Interesting thread and something I've been struggling with.

We went through the Beat Mapping process in detail, which is the right tool for the purpose, and set up a solid workflow for his projects.

Curious to hear what the 'whole new thing' is... Interesting thread and something I've been struggling with.

The general rule with Beat Mapping is to always work from left to right. Then if you have unwanted behavior, break it down and if needed start a new empty "test" project where you test very simple things such as the position of one MIDI note that is located after a beat you're mapping. If you have any specific questions about a behavior you're struggling with, ask your question in the forum!

I'm curious about the relationship between 'Smart Tempo' (which I've used with great success) and Beat Mapping? Are they two different methods to achieve the same thing?

Actually yes. Smart Tempo is pretty much automatic and Beat Mapping is step by step. Beat Mapping has the advantage of much finer control, but takes more time (than a single mouse-click). Smart Tempo can get it right, but if it fails you may end up with a quarter note missing in the mid of 130 bars and that is an absolute bitch to rectify.

... Smart Tempo is pretty much automatic and Beat Mapping is step by step ...

Thanks fuzzfilth... do you know from your Logic history which came first, if one is a kind of wrapper over the other, versus completely new features (and likely codebases)? (Sometimes this info about developer intent helps in a decision about which features to use.)

Beat mapping came first. Smart Tempo is the attempt to use transients to beat map automatically.