MCU's MARKER+Function key question.

Hi,

On my X-Touch (in MCU mode), the Marker and Function keys combinations use markers this way: MARKER+F1 GOTO MARKER 1, MARKER+F2 GOTO Marker 2 .. MARKER+F8 GOTO Marker 8. It's still the same after I deleted the com.apple.logic.pro.cs file.

 

In the Mackie section of the LPX Control Surface documentation, it is indicated that MARKER+F1 creates a marker without rounding, MARKER+F2 creates a marker with rounding and MARKER+F3 deletes a marker.

 

Is it that the MCU protocol had changed and the doc has not been updated since?

 

Thanks

Edited March 7, 2021 by stratquebec

You should be able to check the behaviour on your system by looking at the controller assignments for these controls...

 

I can't remember offhand without looking...

 

Edit: Looking at my MCU config, none of the Fx-keys in conjunction with the Marker mode (whether in marker mode, or holding the marker button) *create* markers, they just go to markers. Creating markings, with or without roundoff, seem to be a feature of the Vpots in marker modes. (There's a few different marker modes).

 

Are you sure you don't mean Marker + Vpot1, Marker + Vpot2 etc?

 

I'm reading the Logic control surfaces guide (whichever version came to hand quickly) in marker mode and I don't see the info you describe above.

 

Don't forget the X-Touch doesn't necessarily send the same key strokes as the MCU, so they may have chosen to implement the marker functionality differently to how the MCU does (they may not implement all the various modes and options etc, or have different button combinations etc.)

Thanks Des.

Yes, seems the X-Touch has some custom implementations of these Marker+Function key combinations.

Edit: Oh, well, based on your observations, it's the documentation that is not updated.

 

See here for the MCU documentation I refer to: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/logicpro-css/ctls72227e31/mac

Edited March 7, 2021 by stratquebec

Thanks - Ok, yes, that chapter section is in my previous PDF copies of this document too, and seems to contradict the actual Marker manual section.

 

I don't have my MCU's hooked up right now so I can't check their behaviour, all I can do is look at the controller assignments and I don't see assignments that match up to that table - let me have another look at it...

 

Oh man, sorry for the confusion on y side. My marker+function combinations do perform a GOTO marker, not a create Marker function. I'll edit my OP. Still, the doc is outdated it seems.

Yep, the only options to create markers with or w/o rounding are, as I said above, on the V-Pot Select buttons on screen, not the F-keys. I agree the doc is confusing, and possibly outdated, as I think that table is in the original MCU documentation going back at least LP7, and possibly before...

Good. No big deal. Using the V-POT to create markers works the same on the X-Touch. Great MCU clone for the price.

 

Have a nice day Des.

Yep, the XT looks a good device and I've heard good things about it. I'm hoping to pick up an XT-One but they are all out of stock everywhere at the moment...

Yep, the One seems to work very well with Logic according to many YT videos. Hope you'll can get one soon!

Just managed to order one!

Cool! Let us know how you like it!

From my understanding, the V-POT on the X-Touch One is not assignable. All it can do is control the Pan. So impossible to control the Sends level or anything else with it. It is something you're aware of?

Thanks Des.

Yes, seems the X-Touch has some custom implementations of these Marker+Function key combinations.

Edit: Oh, well, based on your observations, it's the documentation that is not updated.

 

See here for the MCU documentation I refer to: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/logicpro-css/ctls72227e31/mac

That table isn't 'not updated' it is completely wrong. Someone decided that the VPOTS used in Marker modes were function keys.

 

The new documentation (terrible) at https://support.apple.com/guide/logicpro-css/marker-button-overview-ctls722283e4/10.6/mac/10.15 describes the use of F1-F8 with the Marker key held down.

 

I can highly recommend finding a copy of the earlier versions of 'Control Surfaces Support' manual - I use the Logic Pro X 10.3 version. The first 3 chapters are invaluable, and of course, Chapter 4 - Mackie Control - is *the* manual for your X-Touch. You might find some very interesting things if you go through the Mackie Control chapter and experiment with your X-Touch.

 

Personally I just put the X-Touch into 'Large Marker' mode (press and hold SHIFT, press and hold MARKER, release SHIFT, release MARKER) and I use rewind and FF buttons to move between markers.

 

The Logic Pro 9 documentation is still around - https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/9.1.6/cn/logicpro/controlsurfacessupport/ - which provides essentially the same information about the MCU

Yeah facej. Indeed the 10.3 LPX version Control Surface documentation is the "bible". Thanks for remembering me that. To navigate markers I simply push MARKER and use the RWD - F.FWD tandem. But indeed to navigate AND manage markers at the same time the Large Marker Mode is ideal

 

The more I use my X-Touch, the more I get use to it and the more I like it!

 

Thanks for your help my friend!

From my understanding, the V-POT on the X-Touch One is not assignable. All it can do is control the Pan. So impossible to control the Sends level or anything else with it. It is something you're aware of?

 

I've no idea, I haven't looked at it in depth. It doesn't make a difference to me - I actually only need it to be a pan anyway.

Anyway, if it needs to be hacked, it will be hacked. I make the MCU protocol dance to my every whim...!

 

What I like about this is it brings back the transport section and wheel from my MCU's that I miss a little bit with my custom small footprint controller setup, a permanent selected track volume fader (and something better to write automation), and as a movable remote transport unit to use when recording out of reach of the computer. I do not need it for plugin control as I have all that covered (again, with a super-hacked custom MCU protocol setup.)

 

Edit: Looking at the manual it also supports User mode, so you can set up custom mappings on controls without interfering with regular functionality.

Edited March 7, 2021 by des99

I can highly recommend finding a copy of the earlier versions of 'Control Surfaces Support' manual - I use the Logic Pro X 10.3 version.

 

I've got pretty much all of them going back to the original Logic 5.x *emagic* Control documentation, which has been invaluable to me as it describes the data formats in more detail (eg how the various vpot metering modes are encoded etc).

@des99 if the Logic 5 control documentation is in PDF format might I get a copy of it, please? The oldest I have is the Logic 7 Dedicated Control Surface manual. That has the MIDI implementation charts for the Logic Control.

Here you go:

LogicControl_EN.pdf

 

I think the LP7 version has most of this stuff too, I just looked. Like I say, I've pretty much got every version knocking around here in my manuals folders...

 

Anyone need the SoundDiver Programming Manual..?

thanks - now tucked safely on my blog space.

From my understanding, the V-POT on the X-Touch One is not assignable. All it can do is control the Pan. So impossible to control the Sends level or anything else with it. It is something you're aware of?

 

I've no idea, I haven't looked at it in depth. It doesn't make a difference to me - I actually only need it to be a pan anyway.

Anyway, if it needs to be hacked, it will be hacked. I make the MCU protocol dance to my every whim...!

 

What I like about this is it brings back the transport section and wheel from my MCU's that I miss a little bit with my custom small footprint controller setup, a permanent selected track volume fader (and something better to write automation), and as a movable remote transport unit to use when recording out of reach of the computer. I do not need it for plugin control as I have all that covered (again, with a super-hacked custom MCU protocol setup.)

 

Edit: Looking at the manual it also supports User mode, so you can set up custom mappings on controls without interfering with regular functionality.

 

I suspected that with all the knowledge you have, customizing the X-Touch One would be a child play!

Cool! Let us know how you like it!

 

I've had it for a day now. it's pretty cool, build quality is nice (it's surprisingly sturdy), and it works well enough (a *little* buggy in places, but it seems to have settled down a bit now.) No power switch though, which is annoying. I'll have to rig something up as I don't want these things left on all the time.

 

As well as just controlling the selected channel, you can also press the "Master" button and the fader instead controls the master fader, which is a nice feature for a quick monitor control.

 

Probably more useful though is I changed it to control Automation Quick Access, so although normally the controller can't generally access anything other than volume/pan on the selected channel by default, with AQA on, you can use the fader to automate any visible automation parameter on the selected track - sends, plugin parameters, whatever, which is quite useful.

 

You can't have both assignments (master fader and AQA) together though as they conflict so at some stage I may well repurpose a few buttons to flip between Master mode controlling the master fader, or AQA.) I never use automation Write mode, or Groups, so there's two easy buttons I can repurpose for more useful things, and I rarely use drop, or replace from the controller so there's some more buttons I can repurpose, but it's early days, I'm just getting used to building this thing into my workflow before I hack it to pieces! I might just end up repurposing the whole F1-F6 row and leave selecting automation modes to the mouse - we'll see.

 

It also has a MC User mode setting where you can edit what MCU commands the buttons send in this mode, which extends it's functionality (but it requires a few key presses to switch modes, which is less good. Not sure I'll need this, but might come in handy for some specific purposes.)

 

The fader feels decent enough and isn't too noisy, so all in all it's a useful little extra for not a lot of money.

 

So it brings back most of the things I could do with the MCU to my smaller desktop system - transport, jog wheel, zoom, jumping between markers, automation, a bar/time display, cycle setting and toggling, click toggling, and a motorised long-throw fader for moves.

 

Mine came with firmware version 1.04, the release version. Upgrading to 1.07 gave an undesirable side-effect, and 1.08 is a PC-specific bugfix update, so I reverted back to 1.04 which works best here.

 

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to address them...

Thanks for your feedback des99. At first I was looking for the XTOne but read on gearslutz that it can't control the sends level. Then I was thinking of the compact and I end up with the full MCU clone that is the X-touch. Since I already had a Mackie Control years ago and had to sell it, I'm glad I choose the X-Touch. I use it more and more with great satisfaction. But I'm curious!

 

So, I don't know if controlling the sends is something you want to be able to do with the XT-One but I would be curious to know if this is something possible?

By default, no you can't control sends. If you're used to an MCU (and the XT is basically a complete MCU), you'll be aware of the range of things you can put on, and control by, the Vpots (EQ mode, sends, channel strip modes, plugin edit mode, instrument edit mode etc).

 

None of that stuff is available on the XT One - the only vpot you get controls the pan of the selected channel, and a few other things (eg, hold the nudge button, and you can select your nudge value).

 

However, you can do it (control sends, plugin parameters etc) via the AQA method above, if you're familiar with AQA.

 

Personally, I quite like the simplicity of it - remember I do have an MCU + XT, but they are just too big and would take up my whole desk. Fine to break out if I'm going to spend a while mixing, but otherwise just too big. The XT you have is a more compact version, but even so, 16 faders of that is still sizeable.

 

The one advantage of the way I'm doing things now is that plugin control is *way* better than the MCU provides, as I have effectively a customised C4 setup so I have instant access to 32 controls and plugins re-ordered in a consistent way. In many ways, this control is more important to me than hands on 8 or more faders. And this plugin controller also flips to HUI mode at the press of a key to control 8 channels anyway (including sends).

 

So for what I wanted, the XT One is kind of ideal. It doesn't edit plugins, but I specifically didn't want it for that, as my existing solution works for me better than any other solution I've found.

Ok I see that your C4+XT One combo gives you the control you need.

I'm not an MCU power user but yes, I see all it can do using the V-Pots in the different modes and this is quite amazing! And I began to map some functions to the V-Pots through the user mode, and slowly but surely, I can do more and more things with less "mousing", without locking at the iMac screen! Very good feeling!

 

Considering when the MCU was designed and developed, it's had amazing longevity! Edited March 14, 2021 by des99

Absolutely! And Wave's Fit controller now is...

March 2021 update: FIT is now compatible with the HUI/Mackie protocols for Pro Tools, Logic, Ableton Live, and Cubase

Wow! A 2021 update...

 

https://www.waves.com/hardware/fit-controller-for-emotion-lv1#introducing-fit-controller-for-emotion-lv1

 

The Mackie protocol is not about to die soon!

And the SSL UF8 was just released too, SSL abandoned their previous protocols and went back to the MCU/HUI format, as it's the mostly widely supported controller system we have.

 

(I"m not saying it wouldn't be nice to have a bit of work done extending this format though...)

Possibly the neatest option, though, is Focus mode, in which the controller acts like a mouse scroll wheel, such that hovering the mouse over any plug‑in parameter brings it temporarily under the controller’s spell.

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/ssl-uf8

 

Oh... That's a nice feature.

The "hover" function is similar to the "Link" function on a Faderport or ioStation 24c from PreSonus. Put the device in LINK mode and the pot adjusts whatever Studio One is looking at. Haven't decided if it works like that in Logic/MCU mode. I got a new, portable interface - ioStation 24c - to be audio interface and control surface. So far pretty happy. The X-Touch One was a contender, but in the end the audio interface (sans MIDI) won out over "just a controller"

By default, no you can't control sends.

 

I was just thinking about this, had a niggly feeling and so I went and tried it.

 

I wasn't completely correct about saying you can't control sends. You *can* control sends via the XT One (and HUI etc), because Logic has a "Sends on Faders" function, and this translates to control surfaces too. So if you eg flip Send 1 onto the faders, then you can easily control (or automate) that send level with the fader.

 

Which is cool!

 

Also - I also don't really use the jog wheel to move the SPL around that much, so I might repurpose that for something else. I tried as a test setting it up (using Keyboard Maestro) as a mouse wheel controller - so you hover the mouse over a control or plugin knob etc, and then turning the jog wheel left and right does the same as the mouse scroll wheel, and controls the affected parameter, which is quite nice. Not sure if that will become permanent, just exploring some workflow options bit by bit...