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Score Editor - Complex Choir piece


luckyal

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Ok. I've exhausted all of my searches. There's plenty of tutorials on Siblius and Dorico, but I don't see anything on Logic Score Editor with respect to notating for vocal arrangements.

 

I have a fairly complex piece that has melodies and sub-melodies. Basically it consists of a soloist + 2 add'l soloists that come in 1/3 way through the song, followed by a choir that starts out as SATB and expands, in some parts to about 8 voices. For Staff Styles I basically chose 2 parts, Treble (for soloists), and Piano 1+2/3+4 which I duplicated and made into a Choir 1+2/3+4 by adjusting some things to ensure more readable notation.

 

Is this the best way to go about setting up for vocal parts. Optimally, I would like to have each choral vocal part programmed on each separate track and then combine all of the parts on a 2 part staff (treble and bass).

 

The second issue I'm having is that I have a lot of syncopated phrases in this piece and notes that begin before the measure and continue on into the next measure. For example: see 34-35 and notice the last note on 34 and how it carries over to 35. My choir director said that's not going to work for him or the choir. He also said that the count is wrong. The song is in 12/8 and that adds up to 13 or something to that effect (I don't know theory, so...). I found a way to partially satisfy him by selecting "Not Independent" which apparently corrected the number of beats but added a tie that carries over to next page.

 

And lastly, in some cases Logic separates the notes that are too close to each other for readability but in others it doesn't. I can't figure out why. See last syllable in this example - compare soloists part to choir's bass/tenor part.

 

I have yet to find resources, video or otherwise, that go in depth on Logic Score Editor with emphasis on writing for vocal parts.

1836022555_ScreenShot2021-04-06at4_43_48PM.thumb.png.cafa3385e5cc526c07c271bf3c37cf94.png

Treble Staff Style

433565904_ScreenShot2021-04-06at4_43_37PM.thumb.png.1e7f93528ca72f4ddf9edf96327d03f0.png

Choir Staff Style

422628618_ScreenShot2021-04-06at4_50_01PM.thumb.png.67d5c3698edcd77129f4b354d7d2ff0d.png

Note count

1181761759_ScreenShot2021-04-06at5_05_39PM.thumb.png.0c3ffe291edaa37367e5d51f793a2373.png

Note Separation

Lyubov - Quem de Nos.zip

Edited by luckyal
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Alternative possibility: https://musescore.org.

 

This is an open-source yet extremely powerful program that is very specifically focused upon the creation of musical scores as its primary output.

 

"DAW software, such as Logic," fundamentally focus upon time-sequenced musical events, even though they offer "musical scores" as interpretations.

 

Whereas, "musical scoring software, such as this" focus upon scores, offering "musical playbacks of these scores" as interpretations.

 

So: "Which one would you like to be the cart, and which one the horse?"

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I believe i fixed your issues except for the consistent bar lengths.

Frankly ( and please don't take this the wrong way) but you have take folders, gaps, etc that are a result of the composition and not part of the deterministic approach to making the score look great. So I don't even have advice for you on your approach.

 

Let me know if the attached addressed the other issues for you.

Lyubov - Quem de Nos-2-GSV1.logicx.zip

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Not to pile on, but this is something where I would recommend some more study. If you don't know how a measure totals 13 beats when there should only be 12 beats according to the time signature (which suggests you aren't even familiar yet with quarter notes, eighth notes, or dots), knowing how to operate the Logic score editor is going to be akin to walking around in a new unfamiliar location in pitch darkness. (For example: syllabic beaming is not standard these days, yet that's what it looks like Logic is giving you, seeing as there are no beams anywhere in your screenshot.) An alternative option is to hire a score engraver that can suss these things out for you.
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I believe i fixed your issues except for the consistent bar lengths.
Not sure what you mean by "consistent bar lengths." As far as I understand it should be a mathematical calculation for Logic. If the piano roll shows the correct note length, but Score Editor doesn't, how would I control bar lengths?
you have take folders, gaps, etc that are a result of the composition and not part of the deterministic approach to making the score look great.
My take folders were for audio files. I deleted those to reduce file upload size. I thought I cleaned everything up so that you'd only see the Soloists/Choir tracks but apparently I didn't.

 

Also, in your corrected file, the formatting is such that when I print it on an 8.5x11 it's almost impossible to read. If I go up one level to All Instruments, it's better but explodes to 13 pages? Any way to control this?

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Not to pile on, but this is something where I would recommend some more study. If you don't know how a measure totals 13 beats when there should only be 12 beats according to the time signature (which suggests you aren't even familiar yet with quarter notes, eighth notes, or dots), knowing how to operate the Logic score editor is going to be akin to walking around in a new unfamiliar location in pitch darkness. (For example: syllabic beaming is not standard these days, yet that's what it looks like Logic is giving you, seeing as there are no beams anywhere in your screenshot.) An alternative option is to hire a score engraver that can suss these things out for you.

I'm trying to think of a way to respond but I am struggling to find the right terminology. Bottom line is that MIDI note lengths are what they are and the Score Editor should accurately reflect those. It's just math and Logic should calculate and produce the mathematical result in the Score Editor, no?

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I'm trying to think of a way to respond but I am struggling to find the right terminology. Bottom line is that MIDI note lengths are what they are and the Score Editor should accurately reflect those. It's just math and Logic should calculate and produce the mathematical result in the Score Editor, no?

 

Not really, no. There are far more concepts and best practices that go into music notation than just math. A big part of creating sheet music is knowing how to represent one's ideas most efficiently and clearly so that it is readily understandable by performers. Just as 5+3 and 4+4 both equal 8, if I write notes beamed that way, the beats get visually obscured, and may imply something totally different to the performer (or at the very least, cause confusion or hesitation, which leads to wasted time, even wasted money). It would be nice if there were algorithms that could parse the MIDI tracking in order to quickly create scores and parts for the studio, because then I wouldn't have to essentially replicate my work from Logic into Finale… alas, no such luck. I wouldn't write a letter in a spreadsheet program, just as I wouldn't calculate a budget in a word processor. Each program can technically do that task, but it's not the best use case for them.

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I think if you are mainly trying to just notate something I would do it in MuseScore. LogicPro's score editor is actually surprising good...one of the best built into DAW, StudioOne might be better now, not sure about that..but anyway LogicPro's is quite good...but it does have a few little quirky things you have to learn about how to use it in order to translate from the Piano roll, region based way of working...into seeing a good and meaningful score in LogicPro. It can do what you want but you are are trying to do an advanced scoring task in Logic Pro without knowledge to do it, you'll have much easier results doing the notation in MuseScore which is quite a bit more straight forward since it doesn't have to try to align itself with a sequencer view like LogicPro does. You can export your project as midi file or MusicXML to get it into MuseScore then it should be pretty straight forward.

 

I recommend again Peter's online training above, its $29 to own it forever, its the best training I have ever seen on LogicPro's score editor. Me personally I would not ever try to produce a final score in LogicPro. I can see from Peter's training that its possible to do so! But there are so many other options that are better for that really. MuseScore is totally free.

 

LogicPro's score editor, on the other hand, is super handy while composing and having some staves to look at and edit instead of the piano roll, and numerous cool features for isolating what you see and how you see it. If you were working on the project and needed to interact with other people perhaps the score might come in handy for cranking out some quick temporary scores to get feedback, etc..but my final score would probably always be printed out in something else like MuseScore or Dorico anyway.

 

I haven't really been trying to follow this thread that closely because I just see too many details to want to read it and understand, but what I can say is that you're way into the weeds...and lack understanding about LogicPro...and are unlikely to get yourself out of the weeds until you either master LogicPro score editor at a generally deeper level (see Peter's video), or perhaps I am gathering also you may lack music theory knowledge in some way, I'm not sure about that, but trying to print out a score in LogicPro without both a basic understanding of music theory and notation, as well as a deeper understanding of LogicPro's score editor is a fool's errand. It can all be done, but grasshoppa' you are attempting a task which you may not be ready for. ;-)

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Not sure what went wrong here but the first measure (measure 5) is already way off as far as the notes in the key editor and the notation go:

 

473903532_Bildschirmfoto2021-04-15um01_07_39.jpg.eb0dc9964f592652a9a284b9e71444b8.jpg

 

630810623_Bildschirmfoto2021-04-15um01_08_10.jpg.a0b73ee11c45b8d97a1ca0229529d4cf.jpg

 

Notes in the key editor start 1/8 late compared to the notation. Or there's 1/8 rest missing in the score editor (for whatever reason).

 

The notation itself would be very hard to read either way because it wouldn't adhere to the typical 12/8 beaming rules (unless this is 12/8 with a very different subdivision).

 

I second the Musescore recommendation (although I'm more a Sibelius guy myself).

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I haven't really been trying to follow this thread that closely because I just see too many details to want to read it and understand, but what I can say is that you're way into the weeds...and lack understanding about LogicPro...and are unlikely to get yourself out of the weeds until you either master LogicPro score editor at a generally deeper level (see Peter's video), or perhaps I am gathering also you may lack music theory knowledge in some way, I'm not sure about that, but trying to print out a score in LogicPro without both a basic understanding of music theory and notation, as well as a deeper understanding of LogicPro's score editor is a fool's errand. It can all be done, but grasshoppa' you are attempting a task which you may not be ready for. ;-)

Thanks bud. This paragraph here cancels out everything you said prior. Keep reaching for the stars with your online ethics chops. ;)

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Not sure what went wrong here but the first measure (measure 5) is already way off as far as the notes in the key editor and the notation go:

 

Bildschirmfoto 2021-04-15 um 01.07.39.jpg

 

Bildschirmfoto 2021-04-15 um 01.08.10.jpg

 

Notes in the key editor start 1/8 late compared to the notation. Or there's 1/8 rest missing in the score editor (for whatever reason).

See attached. I went into Staff Styles and deliberately hid the rests, which Logic inserts by default because it was adding too many rests at one point and I couldn't figure out why. Rests.gif.bd30ea81d014ee810e05d5035b7dac73.gif

 

The notation itself would be very hard to read either way because it wouldn't adhere to the typical 12/8 beaming rules (unless this is 12/8 with a very different subdivision).

 

I second the Musescore recommendation (although I'm more a Sibelius guy myself).

The main reason why I don't want to use an external program is because I want to leave things open for editing. I've revoice some vocal parts, changed syncopated parts to non, added parts. If I do it in logic, I can get the audible right away as well as if I vocalist comes in to record, I can play just their part back immediately. It allows me to stay within the same workspace and make changes in real time. Who knows, if Logic does come to the iPad, that'll only make it that much more compelling to use.

 

It's true, I have no music theory background. I am very well versed in Logic (except Score Editor), and have been writing arrangements and compositions for a long time. 29 years to be exact. I do all of that in MIDI and usually give it to an orchestrator. In this case, this is a choir piece in another language. You start getting into more complex phraseology issues with certain lyrics. I worked with a pro arranger in Moscow, but the timezone difference and the back and forth gets to be too much, hence my attempt to do most of this in house.

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I went into Staff Styles and deliberately hid the rests, which Logic inserts by default because it was adding too many rests at one point and I couldn't figure out why.

 

Why would you do that? That's not how notation works.

 

I looked over the part for the soloists and it really comes across somewhat strange around measure 8 and 9 rhythmically. Extremely syncopated - which is largely absent from the rest of the piece. It feels a bit like the notes were displaced by a 16th or so. Of course that could be intentional.

There are lots of other issues: You have a lot of identical notes on top of each other; see here around measure 34 and 35. That the notation looks so weird with those overlong stems is a direct result of this; and notation-wise it's not a good idea.

996512217_Bildschirmfoto2021-04-15um22_18_38.jpg.04b52468bcad9ef3620c4698a630e6a2.jpg

 

You really need to think what purpose the notation here has: If people are expected to sing from it it needs to be readable to a high degree. This "readability" part is where most scorewriters shine (and DAWs suck).

I still can remember when during the 90's it was proclaimed that sooner or later notation and sequencing would become one. In reality those two software types went in very different directions.

 

I tried last night to move some of this over to Sibelius or Musescore but since the placement of notes in the beginning was unclear I did not continue.

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